The first is that almost no physics majors, or grad students, take my general-ed, intro-astronomy class. I wish I could induce more of them to do so. It isn't a prerequisite for any of the other classes they take, though, and making it one would destroy enrollment in the upper-level courses on the subject they do take, including Observational Astronomy and Astrophysics. They do take these upper-level courses, which are heavy on the physics and math that most students in the general-ed, intro-astronomy course find terrifying. The worst problem is that, when the physics majors and grad students come to me to do research, the research requires fluent understanding of the basic principles, which are covered in the general-ed, intro-astronomy class. When physics majors and grad students do take the general-ed, intro-astronomy course, they often they act so bored, as if what we're doing is SO beneath them. Nevertheless, they emerge from this class STILL not knowing doodley-squat about what we do.
The second is that my physics majors and grad students have serious problems with reading. They either don't read the textbooks, reviews, and journal papers that I give them to read, and lie to me when they say they do, or they do and don't understand doodley-squat about them. I wish I could tell which.
I absolutely cannot bear to submit even only to the library the crappy, amateurish dreck my students with so few exceptions produce. One reason is that my name is on that dreck, even if I'm only signing off on it. Another is that there is some useful science in it, which I use to get other students going. If I'm starting a new student in research, often the first thing I'll have the student do is to read the M.S. thesis of the last student. It wouldn't do for it to be dreck: it might give the students the idea that dreck is OK, not to mention it's more scientifically useful if it isn't dreck. So I rewrite them: I really don't have much choice.
- Froderick Frankenstien from Fresno
Hopefully you do not write (positive) letters of recommendation for them for doctoral programs. It really has to stop somewhere, and we have to stop contributing to the devaluation of degrees.
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DeleteFuck, this is depressing.
DeleteI think I was twelve years old when I learned sig figs.
Something tells me this student will earn a PhD at this 3rd-tier school and then ultimately earn tenure there as a distinguished proffie.
Not a chance, Bubba. The qualifying exam of the 3rd-tier school he did go to put a definite end to that.
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DeleteI assume he was admitted without funding? Or does being a likable fellow really get you that many bonus points? (Sincerely wondering as someone who is neither a fellow nor, according to my student evals, particularly likable).
DeleteHe had a teaching assistantship. He'd done it competently enough for us, and did make physics less threatening for the students, which I could never do. So, they got a couple years of cheap labor out of him to run their labs, and then booted him with a hard qualifying exam: it's not an uncommon thing for a third-tier R1 to do. I was still amazed they were desperate enough to take him.
DeleteWow. What, exactly, what going through the minds of the selection committee? Single-digit GRE scores and a nonexistent work ethic? Sounds perfect!
DeleteIt was probably more like, "Oh, a competent TA! We haven't had one of those for a long time."
DeleteIndeed. I'm afraid this is all too illuminating of the real purpose of grad programs in some people's minds ("a warm body that can do the teaching labor so we can concentrate on grants and publication"). If he's a native English speaker, that might also have been a plus (not because people who speak with an accent are worse teachers, but because students are inclined to complain about accents, rather than wait the class period or two it takes to fully adjust -- which is, incidentally, an experience/skill that's quite useful in the real world, where one is likely to find coworkers, employers, clients, etc. who speak with various accents).
DeleteFuck, this is depressing.
ReplyDeleteFroderick, I said this before and I'll say it again: You seem like a really dedicated teacher and mentor, and I admire that. But I'm not sure I understand why you go to all this trouble. I am in the social sciences, where there is less technical knowledge to master and less at stake (lives or bridges rarely hang in the balance), but I would never invest this much time and effort in students with such poor skills and abysmal work ethics. I would have a difficult time even writing a letter of recommendation for last year's "star" student in our department, who couldn't tell me what stats they ran for their honors thesis and who cannot make a theoretical argument to save their life.
ReplyDeleteEver read the end of "Generation X Goes to College," by Peter Sacks? After having a bad day with a bone-headed student, he was followed to his office by one of his better students. As Sacks writes, "Then she said something quite startling, and which I had not entertained as being possible. ‘One of these days, a truly interested student will come up to you and you will no longer be able to recognize it, because you’ll be just as dead as your students…That vacant look will come over you, too. It’s contagious.” Having been dismissed out of hand by high-school and college teachers who never did realize my ability, and who were abusing their tenure coasting to retirement and had long become inactive in research, it matters to me to stay active. I’d take better students, if I could get them.
DeleteYes this!
DeleteI also put a lot of work into my classes and get complained at for it by my Department Chair (we have METRICS TO MEET, you know, and students made to work are not as happy as students given As like candy, never mind the time I waste on feedback when I should be writing research grants and papers). Every now and then, you meet a student who appreciates everything you give them, and comes back for more. Plus coming out of a crappy school system we should at LEAST give them to chance to realise it WAS bad and that they lack skills, whilst in college, so they have a chance to do better. Sometimes one does better.
The part that scares me isn't that students come to your research project ignorant of the underlying material (mine do that, too). It's that they won't (or can't?) bone up to a reasonable degree. Mine do look at the words and pictures in the documents I give them, at least a little. Their reading progress is depressingly slow, and their retention of the material only just misses being abysmal, but they do at least look at the pages and sometimes can even reference the right part of the document when they have to re-read something they didn't understand (which is nearly everything).
ReplyDeleteThen, when they're writing the powerpoint for the talk they are going to give (in the seminar class or at the meeting of the state academy of the sciences we make them attend), I have to go back to square one and explain again what sequence of events leads to a signal in the detector, and how it tells us anything interesting.
That's the part that really bothers me, because it differs from my story of joining a research project as a callow and ignorant youngster. I joined (informally at first, by showing and starting to do the dirty work), an astronomy research program in my fourth year of undergrad, and had only the kinds of understanding that a student might get from a gen-ed class. But I did skim through the reading that was suggested (and then crammed on the relevant section when they became pertinent). By the end of the year I actually knew the subtask of the project I had worked on. I could explain the problem, the solution, and the major roadblocks we'd hit along the way. And I could explain where it fit in the bigger picture. Oh, those explanation would have been too wordy and would have focused on the wrong things, but I understood what I had done.
That's the thing I really want from my research students.
Reading this was not only depressing but maddening.
ReplyDeleteAt my first doctoral program, I was treated like garbage: at one point a professor even told me I wasn't cut out for grad school; I left there with a Master's. At my THIRD doctoral program (I dropped out of the second after one term), I was consistently praised for my acumen and ability. Apparently, I had some sort of gift in my writing and research. Yet, I got almost ZERO support, whether academic, emotional, or monetary. More "likable" (to use Frod's term) often got summer job and recommendations for grants and invitations to join research groups. Much like the post from the other day, all this nonsense took its toll on my psyche. The whole system is schizophrenic.
No wonder I am bitter.
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DeleteI get why you do this, Frod, but if you're going to go to the trouble (and the findings are actually interesting), why not let the Master's thesis remain the student's own work, and revise for (co-authored) publication? That way the thesis showcases the student's individual capabilities, and the byline on the publication accurately reflects all contributions.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, my perspective is shaped by my own humanities field, where the ability to write is part of what a candidate is demonstrating via a thesis. I realize the situation in the sciences may be a bit different, but it still seems to me that anyone who did substantial writing or rewriting (not just editing) should appear as an author, or at least be identified in a clear way in the acknowledgements.