tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post4324701611468564729..comments2023-10-15T04:23:50.187-04:00Comments on College Misery: What did they think was going to happen? Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-35994943203535109152015-06-30T22:01:34.606-04:002015-06-30T22:01:34.606-04:00Oops, "taking and failing a course for which ...Oops, "taking and failing a course for which you were not prepared does NOT necessarily, in itself, render you more prepared to pass it on the retake", but you probably got my drift.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-17987858946980808182015-06-30T12:14:30.305-04:002015-06-30T12:14:30.305-04:00I think the concern over credits and financial aid...I think the concern over credits and financial aid has merit. Where the underprepared student's program could accommodate it, as an alternative to the sequence of ENG 99 (the non-credit, developmental course) and ENG 101, I'd support considering e.g. a more "attractive" full-credit sequence ENG 101.5A/101.5B, which could contain developmental content but bring the student beyondOgre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-36387712393089254832015-06-30T03:18:20.476-04:002015-06-30T03:18:20.476-04:00The actual time is irrelevant. If you can't wr...The actual time is irrelevant. If you can't write/calculate/cook/pound nails at a level of basic competence when someone needs you to, your competence is not what it ought to be. Which, in terms of college courses, translates into: if your basic writing and math skills are so weak that you can't rely on them at all times, they need some extra work.Pennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-21312113108191766942015-06-29T08:52:14.905-04:002015-06-29T08:52:14.905-04:00What about 6 AM? I said 8 because, even though I&#...What about 6 AM? I said 8 because, even though I'm working, I'm in the fortunate position of being able to wake up at 8, spend plenty of time in the bathroom and still get to work by 9. That also explains why I found it rather funny that someone would be in bed by 10 PM or even a couple of minutes before midnight. I realize it feels less early when you are used to waking up earlier and Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-18497367971743530672015-06-29T07:50:17.696-04:002015-06-29T07:50:17.696-04:00Under the logic demonstrated here, having all cour...Under the logic demonstrated here, having all courses taught by adjunct faculty whose re-hiring is dependent on students receiving high passing grades makes excellent sense. <br /><br />It's great for the economy....just not this country's economy.EC1https://www.blogger.com/profile/13414931249618049097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-43126349582375832772015-06-29T03:25:02.149-04:002015-06-29T03:25:02.149-04:00While the problems with basing any course of actio...While the problems with basing any course of action on the outcome of a single test are obvious, I don't think Monica's argument is strengthened by throwing the "8 AM" factor into the mix. In the real world, time of day can't be used as an excuse. If you need to produce a report/an equipment repair/an interview/a lunch menu by noon, and you can't summon your A game at 8:Pennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-39572468177314354862015-06-28T22:50:13.296-04:002015-06-28T22:50:13.296-04:00If just passing is not good enough, maybe they sho...If just passing is not good enough, maybe they should take more writing courses afterwards, but credit courses. It's not the extra practice that bothers me. It's the idea of taking a real, paid course mandated or highly recommended by the university without even getting credit for it. That, and the stigma of the developmental status.Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-47114976724615464062015-06-28T21:47:55.676-04:002015-06-28T21:47:55.676-04:00You were talking about "[writing] comments he...You were talking about "[writing] comments here at their leisure" instead of the significantly more substantial 8AM assessment. As long as we're relaxing that much, might as well relax all the way to a tweet. If you agree that 140 characters isn't enough, then you agree that there's a line somewhere between the full assignment and the tweet where the reliability of the Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-36217905483103274362015-06-28T19:53:00.003-04:002015-06-28T19:53:00.003-04:00I was talking about writing full paragraphs, not 1...I was talking about writing full paragraphs, not 140 characters or less. Regardless, the fact remains that for reading and writing, the current evaluation method is so flawed that half the students recommended for developmental reading or writing but who choose to skip it nevertheless pass. One can only wonder how many more would pass, if they too had the courage to ignore the recommendation.<brMonicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-62470630390500748462015-06-28T18:48:53.702-04:002015-06-28T18:48:53.702-04:00of the students who did enroll in the developmenta...<i>of the students who did enroll in the developmental English courses back when they were required to do so, how many of them eventually passed their first shot at the college-level course with a C or higher? </i><br /><br />A good comparison is given in the linked article: students who were recommended for the developmental courses and who opted in, vs. those who opted out. Overall, pass rate Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-38761880580832335022015-06-28T18:38:12.728-04:002015-06-28T18:38:12.728-04:00I'll let the writing instructors weigh in on t...I'll let the writing instructors weigh in on the subjectivity of their evaluations.<br /><br />If being able to write coherently on a random topic at 8 AM is a reliable indicator of future success in college-level English, then those who cannot demonstrate such competency on entry to the course are at risk of not passing. I know for sure that I had to demonstrate competency at such things to Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-9656233280313424812015-06-28T15:19:57.443-04:002015-06-28T15:19:57.443-04:00But the very evaluation of writing skills is highl...But the very evaluation of writing skills is highly subjective. Besides, some people tend to perform poorly when they are being asked to write an essay on a random topic at 8 AM. On the other hand, if they were to post comments here at their leisure, their writing skills would probably be deemed more than sufficient to get them into a college writing course. It might actually be a good idea to Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-3991089444570909732015-06-28T14:47:11.493-04:002015-06-28T14:47:11.493-04:00"Which raises the question why so many studen..."Which raises the question why so many students who were perfectly capable of passing the college-level course were nevertheless advised to take developmental English."<br /><br />That's an interesting question. Statisticians would call that a Type II Error, or "false negative", i.e., the student was ready for the college-level course, but the test didn't pick up in itOgre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-21629234181802856292015-06-28T12:46:25.506-04:002015-06-28T12:46:25.506-04:00Porpentine, a 50% pass rate does sound impressive ...Porpentine, a 50% pass rate does sound impressive for students who didn't qualify to be in the class, but I think it depends on the department. A (now-retired) English department chair of my acquaintance once confided that to get the lowest passing grade in their English 101 course, all a student had to do was "warm a seat." I suspect that, faced with the prospect of failing Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15711314415244801354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-25857663397230985352015-06-28T11:37:38.223-04:002015-06-28T11:37:38.223-04:00"students may not necessarily lack all the sk..."students may not necessarily lack all the skills taught in the developmental course, or they may be able to relearn quickly what they used to know, if they had some previous exposure to the material."<br /><br />For some students, that could be true. For many, it clearly is not, or the pass rates would be higher.<br /><br />"Perhaps the college could indicate what exactly the Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-67969824649490705732015-06-28T11:08:32.291-04:002015-06-28T11:08:32.291-04:00Which raises the question why so many students who...Which raises the question why so many students who were perfectly capable of passing the college-level course were nevertheless advised to take developmental English. It could be because, concretely, the evaluation must have been one writing sample they had to produce under controlled conditions. Maybe they weren't inspired that day, but during the course, and with some of the work being doneMonicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-10075156236995070852015-06-28T10:22:53.921-04:002015-06-28T10:22:53.921-04:00OK, I'm willing to believe this is a very bad ...OK, I'm willing to believe this is a very bad idea where math is concerned, since math tends to be sequential and cumulative. But I taught developmental writing for several years, and there's a different set of statistics I'd like to see: <i>of the students who did enroll in the developmental English courses back when they were required to do so, how many of them eventually passed Fretful Porpentinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165078003123517013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-58449300813275715932015-06-28T09:07:14.208-04:002015-06-28T09:07:14.208-04:00Yes, I'm sure that's what the legislators ...Yes, I'm sure that's what the legislators were thinking.<br /><br />Seriously, though, I do see your point, particularly about cost. As tuition goes ever up, who isn't going to try to save (more than) a few bucks by skipping an optional course? And the presentation of the courses probably needs to be handled with a little dignity, though I don't think anyone seriously wanted to Rosencrantz Andor Guildensternhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05095512139776536635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-68214256638238686152015-06-28T08:52:45.376-04:002015-06-28T08:52:45.376-04:00Monica, these are not bad suggestions. But they re...Monica, these are not bad suggestions. But they require funding. The entire justification for cutting those courses was to save the state money.<br /><br />First, catch your legislators...<br /><br />We have a similar problem at my (private) SLAC. Doesn't matter what we call the remedial courses; we don't have the staff to teach them, and the students would have to pay for them if we did introvert.profhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09042783611716432247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-84961520092155583682015-06-28T08:50:48.736-04:002015-06-28T08:50:48.736-04:00And why the legislatures want to get rid of that t...And why the legislatures want to get rid of that too.Rosencrantz Andor Guildensternhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05095512139776536635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-40057430965239832562015-06-28T01:28:20.451-04:002015-06-28T01:28:20.451-04:00There could also be other considerations. For inst...There could also be other considerations. For instance, not having to pay for the developmental courses, or paying only a nominal fee, would help. Students may also have to maintain a minimum course load in order to maintain full time status, and that status may be needed for reasons such as financial aid eligibility. If those courses don't count, of course the students don't want to takeMonicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-72330544725831060922015-06-28T00:42:56.093-04:002015-06-28T00:42:56.093-04:00Sure, some of the problem could be due to the stig...Sure, some of the problem could be due to the stigma of the course name. Nevertheless, the main problem is that people who don't know a subject are incapable of judging how much they know of a subject. Dunning-Kruger Effect. Letting them opt out of prerequisite courses is a recipe for disaster, same as letting toddlers drive their own schoolbus. We could call the courses "kittens and Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-32119376633123381732015-06-28T00:02:08.255-04:002015-06-28T00:02:08.255-04:00Could some of the failure to enroll be due to the ...Could some of the failure to enroll be due to the names of the courses? Some students may not want to have on their transcript a course that seems to indicate that they cannot even read, even if that is in fact the case. The same courses under more positive names that imply less ignorance may work better. For instance, I would call math courses "refresher" courses out of respect for anyMonicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-16818571921574624952015-06-27T23:06:19.614-04:002015-06-27T23:06:19.614-04:00This is why we need tenure.This is why we need tenure.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-39426235088732466982015-06-27T21:54:48.990-04:002015-06-27T21:54:48.990-04:00Florida's legislature came up with the solutio...<i>Florida's legislature came up with the solution: allow students to skip remedial classes if they want to.</i><br /><br />Oh, Gog, no. Oh no. Why? Why, whywhywhy the fuckety fucky fucking FUCK WHY?<br /><br />What this is, I can't even . . . just . . . no. Just no.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.com