tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post4454789191181192084..comments2023-10-15T04:23:50.187-04:00Comments on College Misery: Pennsylvania Penny Poses A Question.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-53095672045655796792015-05-15T03:24:06.296-04:002015-05-15T03:24:06.296-04:00Thanks for the vote of confidence, Proffie Galore!...Thanks for the vote of confidence, Proffie Galore! I'm an editor for an academic press and I love my job, but I'm glad someone who's actually in the academic trenches thinks my moral-judgment head is screwed on straight.Pennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-63699532220318120012015-05-15T00:34:57.505-04:002015-05-15T00:34:57.505-04:00Penny, what can we do to persuade you to come back...Penny, what can we do to persuade you to come back to the academy as an administrator? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02906546940408742913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-31277305484942715652015-05-14T11:13:43.513-04:002015-05-14T11:13:43.513-04:00I agree that the bank-robbery analogy isn't ve...I agree that the bank-robbery analogy isn't very exact here. If someone is prevented from robbing a bank, there are other legitimate ways for him to obtain money. In academia, as OPH pointed out earlier, trust is everything; once someone has proven himself untrustworthy, he has no other access to academic accomplishments. The only way his work can now be trusted is if someone physically Pennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-53013868574113300672015-05-13T11:35:22.666-04:002015-05-13T11:35:22.666-04:00It depends on the actual requirements. If doing th...It depends on the actual requirements. If doing the translation was only a small part of the work to be done and the reason he had to do it himself was that no reliable translation existed, maybe he could have obtained the required permission. Or maybe not, but he could have tried and whatever he did, at least he would have been honest about it.Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-65346082831609168102015-05-13T10:45:25.952-04:002015-05-13T10:45:25.952-04:00"If the student submitted a translation that ..."If the student submitted a translation that was mostly done by somebody else, that would have been one thing. Mind you, even then, he may have been able to simply indicate who the translator is, or who helped him with the translation, therefore not stealing anybody's work."<br /><br />Wait, what? You mean he could have said "I, Stu Masters, am turning in this translation of Grad Student Graciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05708180635208405250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-48497741989087656622015-05-13T07:11:55.186-04:002015-05-13T07:11:55.186-04:00Monica, if it has been determined that ski masks h...Monica, if it has been determined that ski masks have no purpose other than robbing banks, ordering a ski mask could be a chargeable offense irrespective of whether it was delivered.<br /><br />If an honor code says soliciting for unauthorized materials is a violation, then it is a violation to solicit the materials.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-7927724794938247112015-05-13T03:14:04.697-04:002015-05-13T03:14:04.697-04:00Except that he did not actually submit as his own,...Except that he did not actually submit as his own, or even obtain for that matter, any translation done by somebody else. In theory, even if he intended to cheat, he could have changed his mind.<br /><br />This is not like walking into a bank and pointing a gun. It's more like being punished for a bank robbery that never happened, just for having ordered a ski mask that was not even delivered.Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-79554767024248383872015-05-13T02:34:50.551-04:002015-05-13T02:34:50.551-04:00I think Monica is overthinking the situation. The ...I think Monica is overthinking the situation. The student was supposed to do an assignment himself. He offered to pay someone else to do it for him. He got caught. Those facts were not in dispute. My only question was what the consequences should be. I'm glad to see so many people agreeing with me that he should have been tossed out of the program on his tush. However, as in most universitiesPennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-22563758077160718092015-05-12T23:53:26.148-04:002015-05-12T23:53:26.148-04:00But wouldn't it be much easier and less questi...But wouldn't it be much easier and less questionable to allow the student to fail or pass on his own merits? Once he produces a translation, he would be expected to be able to answer questions such as "which word or expression in the original was translated as X in English?". If, with the original and the translation, he can't figure that out, obviously he did not do the Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-28127574032014160712015-05-12T23:45:46.820-04:002015-05-12T23:45:46.820-04:00It sounds like a situation where no translation wa...It sounds like a situation where no translation was extant (otherwise the student who needed a translation for anything but completing a translation assignment/exercise would have been consulting interlibrary loan, not a translator). <br /><br />If a reputable translation does exist, then it's basically a citation problem. If there are conflicting translations, that sounds like the starting Contingent Cassandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08161652083031423415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-43303047358879254682015-05-12T23:25:06.540-04:002015-05-12T23:25:06.540-04:00"I can think of several scenarios in which th..."I can think of several scenarios in which the student could have had a legitimate purpose to solicit and/or possess a translation he did not do himself."<br /><br />By which I mean, if his motives were legit, he could have been transparent about them, but he wasn't, so they (almost surely) weren't.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-51451308170335263542015-05-12T23:22:28.157-04:002015-05-12T23:22:28.157-04:00This is quite simple. The OP said, "the other...This is quite simple. The OP said, "the other student was supposed to be translating the article himself." Since the assignment is to do the translation himself, he is not to consult any translation, whether extant or commissioned, to execute his translation. Full stop.<br /><br />Here's how it is possible to enforce the rule: If the student is caught lying while soliciting to get Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-82407464885200119372015-05-12T21:49:01.855-04:002015-05-12T21:49:01.855-04:00Do you actually mean that if it just happened that...Do you actually mean that if it just happened that one or several translations of the text in question already exist, the student is actually expected not to consult them? This question is not as stupid as it sounds: literary works often have several translated versions and revisions. Maybe that is not the case for an article, but who knows? Maybe it has, in fact, been translated. How would it Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-68376255956419191392015-05-12T20:18:10.498-04:002015-05-12T20:18:10.498-04:00"no cheating took place"
If I walk into..."no cheating took place"<br /><br />If I walk into a bank, point a gun and say 'this is a stick up" I am in deep trouble even if I didn't actually get any money. Middle-Aged and Morosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046076243513948921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-49454173516299832402015-05-12T20:16:09.566-04:002015-05-12T20:16:09.566-04:00I composed my comment of 6:05 offline and pasted i...I composed my comment of 6:05 offline and pasted it into an unrefreshed page. When my comment posted, the refreshed page revealed your comment. Glad to see that our understandings are in accord.Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-13244775807812472212015-05-12T20:11:22.051-04:002015-05-12T20:11:22.051-04:00Monica's assertions that "no cheating too...Monica's assertions that "no cheating took place" or that "ordering or being in possession of . . . the translation . . . is not cheating" are refuted by actual policies I've quoted in my comment below.<br /><br />I can think of several scenarios in which the student could have had a legitimate purpose to solicit and/or possess a translation he did not do himself. The Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-90985725039093222752015-05-12T20:05:37.436-04:002015-05-12T20:05:37.436-04:00The coffee kicked in, I did some research, and I c...The coffee kicked in, I did some research, and I can now further opine. (I can thank Monica for mentioning "possession", which was the final "ah, yes" to what I was trying to get to in my earlier comment.)<br /><br />Certain offenses are classified as inchoate or nonconsummate, in that they are preparatory for a crime. The fact that the ultimate crime did not yet take place isOgre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-13419059555055771452015-05-12T18:07:13.907-04:002015-05-12T18:07:13.907-04:00end of first paragraph should read "this far ...end of first paragraph should read "this far without demonstrating true competence."Contingent Cassandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08161652083031423415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-80004076070782002422015-05-12T18:06:18.739-04:002015-05-12T18:06:18.739-04:00Definitely an odd situation, especially on the gra...Definitely an odd situation, especially on the grad level (where I can imagine a language-competency exam requiring translation of a short passage from the scholarly literature -- mine did -- but I can't quite imagine a situation where it would be inappropriate to seek out a translation of a single source if translation/language competency was not at the core of the program, in which case I Contingent Cassandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08161652083031423415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-13768067729535763272015-05-12T16:54:48.074-04:002015-05-12T16:54:48.074-04:00The grad student would (should) be dismissed. No q...The grad student would (should) be dismissed. No question about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-28446381692874951722015-05-12T11:35:09.811-04:002015-05-12T11:35:09.811-04:00If the student submitted a translation that was mo...If the student submitted a translation that was mostly done by somebody else, that would have been one thing. Mind you, even then, he may have been able to simply indicate who the translator is, or who helped him with the translation, therefore not stealing anybody's work.<br /><br />However, as long as no translation was actually provided as his own, no cheating took place. Since there are Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103879727877816655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-31718271710149397162015-05-12T09:48:06.417-04:002015-05-12T09:48:06.417-04:00I suspect that he probably just barely passed the ...I suspect that he probably just barely passed the "Graduate Reading Knowledge" course that most of the language departments offered for graduate students who were expected to acquire a reading knowledge of a particular language as part of their degree requirements. We never did get the whole story; it may be that he was simply supposed to read it and make use of it on his own, and Pennsylvania Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17554566920089893921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-78163862728042861512015-05-12T09:26:08.216-04:002015-05-12T09:26:08.216-04:00I find cases like this all the time. It really dep...I find cases like this all the time. It really depends on the school and the program. Typically, at the graduate level, the student would have probably been removed from the program. At the undergraduate level I see this all the time and not much really happens to the students even after I report them. My question is why the student in this case had to translate an entire article as part of his/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635502687662919820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-21662305579981304852015-05-12T09:20:05.556-04:002015-05-12T09:20:05.556-04:00I second that. Attempting dishonesty is no differe...I second that. Attempting dishonesty is no different from achieving dishonesty: the intent was to deceive. To me, doing this even on a minor assignment is sufficient reason to boot someone from the program: once dishonesty is found, everything that person has done becomes tainted.Froderick Frankenstien from Fresnohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11653942918068535424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883226237165701608.post-56201781820790000482015-05-12T08:45:55.442-04:002015-05-12T08:45:55.442-04:00I wonder if the would-be master's student clai...I wonder if the would-be master's student claimed to be only investigating how easy it would be to cheat on such an assignment.<br /><br />As for the specific questions, they will require some more thought. Academic dishonesty involves more than just the actors. Each event that comes to light -- even one that was stopped in the planning stage -- erodes other people's trust in system that Ogre Proctor Hephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17428431147495287413noreply@blogger.com