And one newish request I get from students all the time is: "I couldn't print my essay to bring to class, and even though your anal-retentive syllabus says you won't accept them via email, can I send you mine away? I'd like you to print it, put a staple on it, and maybe even proof the bitch before grading it and delivering it back to me within a few hours."
I always say no, and usually that suffices - except for grumbling.
But now I have students who like to reply, "But Dr. So-N-So does that. Why don't you?"
Well, I don't do it because I already have a job. If I'm going to be a link in your assignment chain - any more than I already am - I'll want some money, love, respect, gasoline, snacks, or something.
It's the harumph from students that is pissing me off.
Q: Do you allow students to email their final copies of essays, projects, etc.? Are you printing these at home, at the office? Do you put a nice staple on there for them? Do you then give them back the essay all neatly prepared at your expense of time, energy, and toner? Why on earth do you?
Mine hand in theirs on blackboard, and I don't accept them via email at all. Just via blackboard. If they submit the assignment late on blackboard, they are docked a grade.
ReplyDeleteThey are graded on Blackboard so the whole process is entirely paper-free.
When they say, "But Dr. So-N-So does that," chances are quite good that they are lying. Just as dismaying, it may alternatively mean that Dr. So-N-So is an irresponsible goofball: there are more than enough of those in academia, too. But this is much less likely, since as you've observed, the sheer amount of extra work needed to tie your students' shoelaces and wipe their noses when you have over 100 of them ensures that this generally isn't done for long, even by the most student-centered faculty. (Remember Katie?)
ReplyDeleteIt's been a long time since I asked for, or even accepted, hard copies, so I'm probably not the best person to ask, but the only time I print out and staple students' papers is when I'm holding face to face conferences, in which case I print out the version with my comments in the margin after I've finished grading it in Word (as well as posting an electronic version back to the LMS from which it came). I use university resources to do the printing and stapling.
ReplyDeleteExcept in highly unusual circumstances, I don't allow students to turn in papers in any way other than the one I've specified (which is almost always an upload to our LMS); I make it clear on my syllabus that papers are not considered submitted until they are uploaded to the place I've specified, in the file format and with the naming conventions I've specified. That seems reasonable, and I don't get a lot of complaints (but do get the occasional empty or .lnk file, which may occasionally be an honest mistake, but is more often the 21st-century version of "the dog ate my homework.") I suspect fewer and fewer students these days have their own printers, but, at least on my campus, there are still plenty of pay stations with nice fast laser printers, and I've never heard a student complain about having to use one of them. Presumably they do the cost/benefit analysis, and decide whether it makes sense to buy a printer or use the campus ones. Since they also have to provide their own scantron forms and blue books for tests, printing costs hardly seem like an unreasonable expectation.
P.S. Modern students lie for any and no reason whatsoever. One thing that drives me batshit loco is when they lie to me when they don't even need to: they just do it, anyway. Of course I don't accept homework turned in via e-mail: as I explain to them, "This is how things get lost." The real reason, of course, is that, as you've observed, I'm their teacher, not their manservant.
ReplyDeleteI don't print out papers. I like to correct hard copies, with my pen. I'm a luddite I guess. I have them ask me all the time and I say no. I do allow them to "hold their spot" for one day with an e-mailed copy, as long as they bring the hard copy the next day to class (and I check to make sure they have not altered it) but that is only if they have a verifiable sickness or car problem (and I do require a doctor's note).
ReplyDelete@CC: I love the .lnk thing as the modern "dog ate my homework!" When I teach online, I cannot be a Luddite and of course then I accept and grade electronically, but only as a file. Oooooh, those .lnk files. I just consider them as not turned in now, zeros, but it took me a while to catch on to this particular scam. It seems like such an honest mistake, and some of them are so goooood at lying and crying and carrying on. Sigh.
I am guilty, truly, and I'm sorry. I don't know why I always fall for it, but I have too many students whose stories always sound so sincere: roommate finished off the toner, Dad packed printer cable for wrong machine.
ReplyDeleteI like things neat, and so when I print out their papers I do correct margins and the like, and I know I probably shouldn't. I'm enabling them.
Of course they shouldn't use what I do against you or others, but I can see that acting as their "manservant" (from above) is something I could avoid.
I'm sorry Darla, but you must die!
ReplyDelete(jk....jk....jk)
I require them to turn their papers in as Microsoft Word documents. That way I can upload them into Turnitin easily. Then I print them off at work for grading. Some students (bless them) send me the file electronically and also give me a nice hardcopy. Also, if some student tries to cheat on the fonts and margins I can set them to the settings I specified and then make a note on the paper that "this is what it looks like when you follow the instructions."
ReplyDeleteWhen a student tells me "but prof so-and-so lets us do x" I just shrug and say "I'm not him and this isn't their class." case closed.
I should note that when I correct margins, fonts, etc, it's when the student's cheating is obvious--the 14 point font, the triple lines between paragraphs, the 2 inch margins. I don't sweat the small fudges.
ReplyDelete@Darla: Sorry, maybe I am being too harsh (and Bella certainly is). I confess that I, too, have been guilty of being too nice. It doesn't further our students' education: the real world doesn't work that way. Also, sheer exhaustion just got to me, after a while. You wouldn't be acting as their "manservant": you'd be acting as their maid. That doesn't sound good, does it?
ReplyDelete(Somehow, "manservant" sounds more subservient than just "servant." So does "maid," or "nanny." "Governess" does not, even though the job is the same.)
Yuck, no, I don't print student papers. Ever. If they say "Well Dr. So-and-so does," I say, "Different classrooms, different rules." I do the same thing: they can stop the clock on an overdue paper by sending me an attachment and, if it opens and if it matches a hard copy delivered to me at the next class session, they get credit for the time and date of the e-mail.
ReplyDeleteBut I grade late papers whenever I damned well feel like it.
Uploads to the course LMS dropbox only.
ReplyDeleteHandy, as it also gives me a timestamp of when the paper was submitted--no more, "but I put it in your faculty mailbox yesterday morning because I couldn't find your office. It's not
late."
Unrelated but pleasant end to the week--got message from a former student who wanted to use me as a reference, and said student was one that I'm tickled to offer a reference for.
A nice reminder to me about the ones that do make this job fun.
I think any of you who are taking in only electronic copies are making a tremendous error and letting your students off the hook.
ReplyDeleteFor me, a final copy of a project or essay is a real thing, hard copy, paper, ink, staples, whatever. They make it, manufacture it, build it, transport it, and it's the artifact I grade.
I know all of the reasons why some faculty go for the paper-free thing, but I fear that faculty who do that are just not rigorous enough. Everyone suffers for that convenience of yours.
Brava, Kimmie. I wanted to say it but was afraid to.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your logic, Kimmie and Will. The paper I receive electronically is just as real as the one you receive in your hand. Why are paper, ink, and staples important to you? The electronic version shows me all the content and formatting, I can make much more detailed comments on it due to better use of space and highlighting/correcting tools, and I have a digital record of exactly when it was received and how. All my assignments go through the LMS dropbox regardless of if whether the class is online or face-to-face.
ReplyDeletePlease explain how that makes my process less rigorous than yours.
Thank you, EnglishDoc; and I'm really not getting where you're coming from at all, Kimmie and Will. The artifact is the one they upload to Moodle for me. I gets time-stamped, I grade on line and upload the result, I have an easily-accessible record both of when they submitted their papers and how I responded to it. In what way would this be made more rigorous by requiring them to kill a tree?
ReplyDeleteI don't ask for page count anymore, but for word count, which is easily accessible in the electronic copy (and it's very easy to check to see if the "2500 words" they've typed on the front page is actually 1475 words in a very large font). This takes care of all the margin and font tweakage.
And no, I never ever print a paper out for a student. But then I don't require a paper copy, so the issue doesn't arise.
I wonder about the "Dr so-and-so" claims.
ReplyDeleteA), probably lying, the way they do.
But B), I wonder if they are talking about accepting material via email? I'm finding a huge division among proffies (often, but not always, associated with age) on whether they use electronic submission or not.
I do. It's so easy to comment, save, and return. No face contact needed. No overwhelming Axe body spray.
But I know that people who are not used to technology would end up wasting two or three times as much energy on using Word's commenting feature.
It's a divide, but the up-and-coming generation all uses the electronic version and students may be getting used to that instead of the ol' print-and-mark.
I won't speak for Kimmie, obviously, but for me the physical thing is more important than the digital item because it's physical. In my work with both kinds of assignments, students who are forced to provide the "real" thing have to take more care, spend more time finishing the item to a professional "look," and I love that they have to carry that damn thing in a backpack, to class, hand it to me, and then we get to share the experience of working over that artifact. I love how a paper degrades, falls apart, accepts ink, gets stained, gets burned, gets bent.
ReplyDeleteI've graded online and read drafts online, and students FREELY just keep hitting SEND on their electronic drafts until I give up trying to help them learn how to edit.
When they have to recreate a new physical object from scratch and tote it to me again, I like that the effort requires more of them than me.
Perhaps it's generational or something to do with button pushing, but I find a world of difference in the two acts and the two items.
I have only one circumstance where a student can email me an electronic copy of an assignment - if they realize (usually with less than an hour left before deadline) that due to: (a) printer/software/hardware problems (b) traffic, parking, subway problems etc (c) other random shit that may be plausible, they can't submit in time an assignment that is otherwise finished. I make it clear to them that the electonic copy is solely as confirmation that they finished the assignment in time, I still require the hard copy to mark the assignment, and that I will compare the electronic and hard copy assignments to ensure that no changes have been made.
ReplyDeleteSince many, if not all, of the professional journals in my field accept only digital submissions, I have no problem accepting the same from students.
ReplyDeleteI'm on Will's side on this one, and for many of the same reasons. And, for Faris, I do what I do with students partly because all of the correspondence I do in my field is still on paper.
ReplyDeleteIt feels "real" to me, too, and there's nothing that shows evidence of hard work by a writer than a bent and bloodied rough draft.
Plus, how can the rest of you read on a screen all day?? That blows my mind.
DK
I'm incredibly sickly-sweet and passive-aggressive about it. I learn these techniques from debt-collectors and awful customer service reps.
ReplyDelete"Thank you for informing me what other professors do. I always strive to improve my teaching and it's nice to have this context. Unfortunately, to be fair to all students, I have to stick by the policies I articulated multiple times and well in advance: on the syllabus, on the paper assignment, and in class. I have to hold everyone to the same rules. Feel free to come talk during office hours. Best wishes, me."
I wonder if the difference also depends on field? Material objects don't matter in my field at all; at least not in my sub-branch of it.
ReplyDeleteAs for commenting on drafts, I will do that for ONE draft. Not for 12. So it will do them no good to keep hitting "send".
I accept papers via e-mail, though next term I'm going to a Blackboard only system (students at NEWSCHOOL turn shit in a week early, CONSTANTLY, and it is driving me crazy sorting through what is due and needs to be graded now versus what doesn't need to be looked at for a week--but that's a rant for another time, right up there with "but I turned it in two days ago why don't I have feedback yet" when the effing thing isn't due for a week yet).
ReplyDeleteAhem.
THAT SAID, I have and will continue to print off assignments for them and return handwritten feedback under certain circumstances. If students are missing the day we are doing peer review, and they email me the essay, I will print it off and throw it into the reading pile for other students.
I will also print them off when I am traveling and don't know how my Internet connection will be, for reading on planes/trains, for reading in cars, etc.
For the most part this is all about my convenience, not theirs, but hey--they don't need to know that.
Well, I admit that I put them all on my iPad as PDFs, and then use PDFPerfect to mark them up and send them back; and that using my shiny new toy makes marking them as much of a pleasure as it's ever likely to be ...
ReplyDeleteI'm with Stella and others. Students submit assignments through the LMS. No paper submissions. In addition to the benefits mentioned by previous posters, it makes doing old-school plagiarism searches easier. Copy-and-paste into Google = you are totally busted.
ReplyDeleteI don't get the theory that paper submissions are more real. I guess you would never consider online tests, but I prefer them too. No more trying to figure out what the hell their writing says!
I stopped carrying student essays around once we switched to an LMS that has portfolio capabilities. Those suckers were heavy! At one time I was teaching sections of "Writing for Hamster Fur Weaving" and by the end of the semester, I was hauling around 18 pounds of paper at a time.
ReplyDeleteTheir final copy online has to look just as professional as any hard copy, and I have a record of everything I've said on their papers (as do they), so no more printing out anything! I also have access to their drafts and turnitin is linked to the LMS so it's all-around easier for me.
I can also see who has read my comments and responded to them without requiring them to print out yet another piece of paper for me to carry, which I really like about our LMS.
I agree that perhaps those of us who assign only essays rather than projects that require printing (such as media kits, for example, or collages) might as well do it online rather than in hard copy simply because WE like the physical printout.
I don't print for students unless I want a physical copy of something to send to the Plagiarism Police or to review in person with a student.
For the task of busting plagiarists and cheaters, electronic submission can't be beat. Fewer excuses, more options for irrefutably busting asshattery, easier to search for specific terms and ideas . . . as far as killing snowflakes goes, we prefer electronic. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that it's more portable, eco-friendly, and small-space possible; having all those papers running around can be a royal pain.
ReplyDeleteFor actually grading and giving feedback to students who might use it, though, paper's better—even markup in the document margins and tracking changes isn't quite the same as bleeding a fountain pen dry with thoughts, observations, and suggestions. Plus, when it comes to reading long essays, we prefer eye-strain free paper to our computer screen—and woe be to the flake who tries to "touch up" the F on their paper into a B. Besides having handwriting only royalty could get away with having, we use very strange inks when grading papers. I'd love to see a flake try to match the unusual colors, shading, tactile qualities, water/bleachproofness, scent, and/or fluorescence under ultraviolet light that they have.
Thus, we suppose that mandating freshflakes/large courses submit online while upper-level students (especially if you know them, their work, and likelihood to cheat) submit on paper makes sense. If it's over three or four pages, we prefer paper—but printed on their dime, not on our department's!
I have the majority of my students handing in electronically, using google docs (since the new "improved" Blackboard got rid of the drop box function).
ReplyDeleteWhile yes, it's easier for students in some ways than printing out the artifact, managing electronic submission requires them to master the skill of the electronic submission, which many of them find difficult.
The real advantage to me, though is the "document history" function, which lets me see when the piece was written and what (if any) revisions they bothered to do.
Dear Kimmie/Will/Darla/et al,
ReplyDeleteHow do you google for plagiarism when the paper is handed to you? It takes three times as long to type out the various sentences instead of highlight/copy/paste.
You guys are showing your inflexibility to new media. Not all new media is good for newness sake, but this is definitely something that is slowly killing off your accessibility.
Think of where we were 10 years ago. Think where we will be in another 10 years.
Eek, tough love! I'm sure I've convinced no one. Oh well.
@monkey
ReplyDeleteA random third of each of my classes get drawn for plagiarism checks on each essay. They get an automated email, upload their paper to Turnitin, and we both get the emailed results.
I don't feel as if I'm doing something to kill off my accessibility. I'm choosing to be accessible in what I think of as a more physical way. I love that my students have to carry their paper and that we sit above it, sweat and ink and all the rest.
I don't think you're doing the right thing, but would never stand in your way of doing it. I have colleagues like you. They're wonderful people.
The newer version of Blackboard doesn't have the digital dropbox, but what it has now is much better. If you create an assignment on BB, students can click on it and complete it in a provided submission space or in an attached document. BB will automatically create a space in the grade book for each assignment you do this way. Either way, plagiarism checks are easy, and the time stamp still appears. You can also access the assignment all semester. I like this system much better than the dropbox which I found to be tedious and hard to manage.
ReplyDeleteIt comes down to this: Make them do whatever you require them to do, either in hard copy or digitally.
ReplyDeleteIf you want them to submit essays in hard copy (MLA, APA, whatever), make them adhere to the style that you've required, right down to the staple in the upper-left corner. Don't print for them.
If you want them to submit digitally, make sure they do so correctly.
There are valid reasons for submission in each form. For my really low-level writing classes, the level of computer literacy varies wildly within the class, from student to student (really). In those classes, requiring anything but standard word processing and printing will overwhelm many students.
In upper-level writing courses, I have students submit essays in a variety of ways--Blackboard, via attachment, hard copy.
All of this teaches students to submit their documents the way their audience requires them to, not merely what's convenient for them. Also, it requires students to plan a little, in some cases. These are lessons that will serve them well for a long time.
I'm with Greta. Totally. If you require it, they should do it. Doesn't matter if they don't like it/think it's stupid and a waste of time/trees/whatever. Anyone who has kids will tell you the same thing. "Because I said do it this way" works WAAAAAAY better in the long run than patiently explaining why you want it this way. I don't have time to argue with a 7 year- old, and sure as hell don't have time to argue with an 18 year-old. Does that make me a shitty parent? Dunno. What I do know is that my kids are well-behaved, and do as they're asked (not always the first time but they do it).
ReplyDeleteSame thing goes for students.
I-don't-care-how-Proffie-X-does-it. Doesn't. Matter. Fucking do it the way I'm telling you, or drop the fucking class.
That is all.