It's happened to me before but the most recent was last night. During the break of Advanced Hamster Fur Weaving this one student came up to me (after telling another student he was taking off) and asked me "Is it okay for me to go?" After a moment of shock I said it wasn't okay, but he's free to do what he wants. He just kept asking, presenting it as him trying to know if it'll effect how he does in the class or him trying to get a sense of "where I'm coming from". I said "here's where I'm coming from...." He leaned in as if I was going to tell him a secret and was disappointed when I followed with "when you aren't in class, you aren't in class". After repeating he's going to be missing important material and I'm not going to say it's okay for him to leave I just had to ask.
"What do you want me to say?"
"You know, different professors have different things, and I know how you are"
"How am I?"
"You....um....."
"Look, you should take ownership for yourself and your decisions. You can leave if you want, but I'm not going to say it's okay cause it will effect how you do in the class"
"Can I get partial credit for being here?"
"But you're not going to be here"
"But I came"
"Yeah, sure man, whatever." And then he STILL left, realizing I probably didn't mean it.
I'm still new and while it's nowhere near my first time at the rodeo, I can't get over these interactions. Honestly, it pisses me the fuck off and bums me out. If he just left, I would have made a note and went on with my day without a second thought. I even sorta respect that he didn't make up a bullshit excuse like dying grandma in a broken down car. He just wanted to leave and for me to say it was okay. Yeah sure, this whole thing we're doing, who cares! I try to repeat as a mantra what I learned from RYS: "Don't care more about their education then they do". It works! Most of the time. Then someone keeps asking you if its cool for them to go during the whole class thing. I don't care more about their education then they do, but being asked to say it's okay that they don't care at all? And when I say no, they just ask with different words? That's a new level. It's like staring into the abyss and not only do you see nothing, you realize there isn't even an abyss!
Q: So what is it? Do I give off some kinda vibe or does this happen to other people? How do I keep it from killing the natural joy I do get from teaching? And more importantly, how do I stop myself from inappropriately freaking out in a few weeks when the same student wants to blame me because they don't understand anything about Advanced Hamster Fur Weaving?
As always, I'm confused by some of these conversations. My own attitude is that attendance is not mandatory, and I do not keep formal records. Classes are there for students to learn from, same as textbooks are there for students to learn from. Sure, sometimes I have activities in class (miss the class, miss the marks) and I offer no make-up opportunities.
ReplyDeleteThat seems to be your attitude too.. but the student seemed to be asking for "partial credit", implying something else.
Anyway, he's an adult. (Even if he isn't.) He left, his decision, his problem. The only reason to freak out is the inevitable fallout from bad student evals.
I actually discuss this when talking about attendance on the first day of classes. It's also covered explicitly in my syllabus. I tell them that after the add/drop period, their attendance is up to them. I don't need to know why they won't be there or weren't there. I don't need to know why they're leaving early. Since we aren't required to take attendance, I don't. It takes too much time, even when I get to know everyone's names.
ReplyDeleteAlso covered is a short discussion about choice and consequence. As long as they are willing to deal with the consequences, they can make their choices as they see fit. It's kind of sad that I need to put these statements in my syllabus, but at least I've covered my ass.
As for a student still asking the question, my answer at that point becomes, "If you carefully read the syllabus, your question will be answered." It also helps to have a keener or two in the front row to back you up. "Yeah, dude. He talked about that on the first day."
"Sure, you can go, you paid for the class and it's your business whether you show up or not. But if you go, you will miss what we will be covering in the last half of the class. I will not be repeating it later. So it's up to you."
ReplyDeleteIf you take attendance, then he gets half-credit I guess, but that is up to you.
Don't let yourself worry about this. It's his problem.
Of course, what he really wants is absolution. Either for himself or his parents.
ReplyDeleteDarling snowflakes,
ReplyDeleteyou must know,
I don't give a shit,
if you come OR go.
Every single student who has asked this of me in 14 years of teaching has left class regardless of my response, which is usually, "No, it's not OK." This means they're not really ASKING, but are INFORMING and want their asses covered by saying, "But I asked you!" when they are held accountable for having missed material.
ReplyDeleteNow I ask THEM, "Are you asking me for permission, or is this your way of telling me that you need to leave class? Because I don't give permission, so if you leave, you know it's against my advice."
It may be mean, but after they leave, I give a pop quiz on something easy. One of my colleagues used to have students show up just to take the quiz at the beginning of class and then leave (routinely). He now gives two quizzes (first half at the beginning and second half at the end; I don't have that energy).
Student excuses usually range from: "It's my roommates birthday," to "I have to study for another class," and only one student (who didn't ask, but who informed me) had a legitimate excuse (his wife was going into labor).
Sorry... to keep yourself from freaking out, remind students that you covered this in lectures that some may have missed, so they will need to get notes from their generous peers because you don't repeat lectures for people who choose to absent themselves from class. That way, they are reminded that THEY are responsible for the material and that you have done your part.
ReplyDeleteWhat gets me is when they leave and then show up at my office later asking me to repeat what I lectured on. That just makes the steam rise!
When I was a student, the only times I ever left class early were when I was very ill and had stupidly dragged myself to class thinking I'd make it through or when I had an appointment I couldn't break that might require my leaving no more than 15 minutes early. I always "asked" the professor if I could leave as a sign of respect for that person's time and so Dr. So and So wouldn't think I was just leaving for the hell of it. I get some of that from my own students now, but a lot of it is just not good time management on their part or desire to avoid part of class.
ReplyDeleteI especially hate it when they tell me they want to leave because they have to pick someone up from the airport. Really? The place with a dozen cabs lined up at the curb and a shuttle service that goes to all major areas of town and a bus stop and a parking lot for said traveler to leave a car? Any one of those options is less expensive in real costs than the student's missing class.
I never tell them what they missed. I make them form groups early on and require them to contact those people. My college requires taking attendance and the instructor's establishment of attendance policies regarding tardiness and early exit. Most of my colleagues count three of those infractions in any combo as an absence.
I don't take it personally; most of the students who left early had somewhere to be for some (mostly) valid reason, and I take it as a courtesy that they're at least informing me that they're leaving. If they take off really early, I tell 'em that they'll be marked absent, and if they bail pretty late, I tell 'em that they'll be counted as present but won't receive participation credit for whatever activity they miss. It's not a big deal, really.
ReplyDeleteI would ask "OK in what sense? You're not tied to your chair. I'm not going to stop you if you leave. But if you leave for the entire second half of a weekly class, I will mark you down as absent for that second half. You have to figure out whether or not that's 'OK'."
ReplyDeleteYes, it bugs me when people sneak out early for no good reason. (I usually mark them down on participation.)
ReplyDeleteBut I prefer that to the douche I had last term, who ambled in smugly every day, always about five minutes late, whistling loudly with his hands clasped behind his back--WTF?
Then he'd loudly plonk his ass behind one of the front-row desks, giving me that smug little smile of his (Look, I'm here! Full attendance points!). After that, he'd immediately open his laptop and spend the class tapping away at it.
A couple of people in the class actually did use their laptops to follow my lecture slides (which I posted online before every class) or to take notes, but I was pretty sure he wasn't one of them. Sure enough, on several occasions I found reason to walk over to students seated behind him, and just as I suspected, he was effing around with Facebook.
Happily, his predictably miserable grasp of the class material did him in without my having to worry about his attendance points. Sometimes life is fair.
Just wanted to say thank you for all the helpful responses!
ReplyDeleteI think DrNathaniel is right though the question isn't even about the class or the grade, it's about looking for a deeper level of absolution that I resent being in the position to give or deny. I'm not a priest and this ain't church, how do I know if he'll be judged? But yes, I can say he'll probably fail the class.
Well, I have morphed from one who did not take attendance (had the attitude that they should learn what they wanted to learn, come when they wanted to come) to taking attendance promptly at the beginning of class. Students who come in late (even a minute late) are counted as late --"Partial attendees" as defined in my syllabus. Students who leave early get counted as "partial" attendees. They are responsible for coming to me after to get their "partial attendance credit" as defined in the syllabus if they miss attendance. Those who make a habit of leaving and coming back will also get partial attendance credit for that day. I have a whole extra record book for it. IT does not take a lot of time, and the important thing is, it makes me feel better. I don't have to get mad; I get even. Two partials count as an absence. After two absences, each absence gets them a point off their final grade. Hang yourselves, assholes. I don't care. Do it. I'll watch.
ReplyDeleteThis is all spelled out in my syllabus. It has already been tested through complaints to the administration, and I have prevailed.
Funny thing is, I am much more relaxed about stuff like this now. My students and I get along better than ever, and I've even gotten positive review comments about it. The responsible students get angry when the others walk all over you and disrespect you and the whole class and you do nothing.
Who are you, Bucky? Is this your post? Why doesn't the moderator make it clear who's sending these?
ReplyDeleteThe naming is my fault. I'm dense, and didn't know what part of the author's pseudonym was real, what wasn't, etc. I don't know all the allusions to all of the works of literature and art that would stand be in good stead in guessing at these things.
ReplyDeleteBucky DID send this post for me to put up. I'll encourage folks who send in things to be clear about what name you want me to post the material under.
Sorry for the confusion.
I just tell them I would make rather them tell me "I have to leave because of X" than ask. I mean, I REALLY don't care if you leave five or ten or whatever minutes early. You might miss something. You might have gotten it from you text. I DON'T CARE.
ReplyDeleteThis is something that I see in younger students more than older ones, so it's something I'm facing now for the first time in years. I gave one guy the crazy look, like "Wtf, why are you asking me this?" and he told me he didn't want to be rude and leave without letting me know first. I told him that was okay, but then let me know and don't ask. Don't interrupt--if you need to be somewhere else relatively quickly after class I'm glad you came but get out quietly and don't disturb anybody else.
This also seems to be an afternoon class thing, my class ends in that magic time about an hour and a half before most doctor's offices and dentists close. It makes sense to schedule the appointment for right after your classes end but before they close, and it makes sense to not MISS class for it, but it also makes sense to freak out and be worried about being late.
SO. JUST FREAKING GO ALREADY.
Jeez, Will, hostile much?
ReplyDeleteI resent the hell out of people who waltz in late or leave early because they distract me while I am lecturing or listening to students speak. So I appreciate an explanation and an apology. But the "asking but not really asking" thing is annoying. Either ask, and be prepared for me to say, "In terms of what's on the syllabus, no, it isn't OK," or don't ask, and jot me a polite word of explanation.