I was at a conference and found myself in a discussion with a bunch of other English Profs about how hard it is to comment on really horrible essays. I mean, what do you say when you cannot even identify sentences...thoughts....anything? Or even when you can, but it is all so horribly disjointed and awful in every possible way? We were talking about how much time those essays take, and how we'd really like to spend more time on the better essays, and less time trying to think of what to say when you can only scratch the surface, and even trying to think of and mark everything that is grammatically incorrect is sometimes enough to give you a migraine. And this woman shared what she has been doing for the past several years, saving her from ever having to comment on the really horrible essays. It's pretty simple. She gives her assignments a due date, and allows them to hand in their work up to one week late. There's just one late penalty: those who hand in their work late will not get written comments. They will only get a grade at the bottom of the essay, and if they want comments, they have to meet with her during office hours and she will go over their essay with them in person. No points taken off--just no written comments. It's a win-win---at least, it feels that way for everyone. The students feel like they are getting something, she knows she is getting something, and even pedagogically speaking, you could make an argument that those very poor writers (who always are the ones to take advantage of that extra week) would benefit more from a live conference on their work anyway.
She shared that, as you might expect, most of the very poor students never show up to ask about their work, and so she wins again.
Wow, I thought. I felt a certain sense of admiration for this idea. I thought I might try it, maybe as soon as I returned. But I didn't. Something about it seems...not right somehow.
Q: So I am asking you, my fellow CMers. What do you think? Is this something you would do?
I have atrocious handwriting, so written comments are often not very helpful for me because the students can't read them (unless I'm grading electronically). Back when I was a TA, I used to put minimal comments on the lab reports, then go around during the lab handing back the reports and having an on-the-spot mini conference about each student's work.
ReplyDeleteOne report was truly horrible, and doing this, I was able to soften the blow of the lousy grade, point out what the problem was, and coach the student towards the writing center. Two weeks later, he stops me on the way across the quad, thanks me and says 'you were right! I reread my report and even I couldn't understand it." By end of semester, he was no rhetorician, but he was considerably improved.
So on first blush, I'd say your friend's idea has this going for it: The really struggling students probably aren't able to use written comments all that well if they can't write and need the face-to-face help anyway. And it recognizes that the students have to be willing to go and get that help. On the downside, just getting a low grade with no comments may intimidate them from asking for that help.
And yet, the struggling students are the ones who need a stick in the arm most. I feel bad lessening the amount of work we do with them.
ReplyDeleteI do have a very simple guide to straight-up papers that I send off to the kinds of essays you describe. But then, I'm not a writing teacher -- that's not my discipline -- and it's sort of incidental to my courses. I do try my best to teach them something about communicating clearly.
Would? Yes. Can? No. Here, the lower one's grade is the more likely the student is to complain to the chair, the "students-first" dean, etc. The amount of work that I would have to do to explain that I return essays without comments..... It is a great method. But not for me here.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do is have mandatory "grading conferences" with each student after each paper (save for the last one, which is due during finals week).
ReplyDeleteThis takes up a week of class time, but it's invaluable, I think. The student is sitting right there, and I point out each difficulty and explain why they're getting the grade they're getting, and how to improve their work. If they don't show for the appointment, they get an absence, and must return during my office hours if they want their paper graded at all.
This has eased up my at-home grading as well. It takes me ten minutes to grade a student's paper with them sitting right there (and I've read the paper before, so I'm already familiar with it). And I don't have any essays to grade at home that week.
I honestly don't think that comments really help most students because most students don't even read them. They just look at the grade. But if you have them sitting there, and are explaining in person, at least you have a captive audience for that few minutes. Maybe something sinks in.
I do something like this for my Intro to Hamster History class. I allow any student to rewrite the first paper if they handed it in on time, but they have to meet with me to address the problems. Several students take advantage of this, and it usually helps. On the final paper, due at the end of the class, they can get written comments if they provide me with a SASE. As you can imagine, the very thought of snail mail insures that NO ONE takes advantage of this, so I end up writing no comments, just recording a grade. I do use rubrics with a few comments, and that has made my grading much better and far fewer students complain about their grades.
ReplyDeleteI love this idea, but my concern is similar to some expressed above. You might not see the students who really need to be seen. I support very much the idea of students being responsible for their own learning (and thus coming to office hours) but there's always going to be that kid who is utterly terrified and won't come to see you at all.
ReplyDeleteRubrics help me a great deal. After leaving my last teaching gig in my own discipline, I realized that my students at that gig were really and truly horrible creatures. They whined about EVERYTHING. They could and would whine about half a point on a rubric. God forbid you graded them harshly on anything...I issued a series of Cs for C papers at the start of one term and was roundly criticized in every possible forum of student nastiness, which led to my being criticized by my chair. He said something along the lines of "but these are bright kids." Sure. They need to use that brightness.
I also used Dr J's strategy of the no comments unless you give me an envelope. Every single one of the little sh*ts wanted comments. And at first I thought, "Wow, that's so great!" Then I realized, when their emails started, that they wanted the comments so that they could more efficiently dispute their grades.
The more time I spend away from that gig, the more I realize in retrospect how much I disliked the students. Hmm...
That doesn't answer your question. I think it's a great idea, and my only reservation is the student who is struggling but also terrified.
I like the idea of mandatory conferences, but I assign (I have to assign) six essays. I do a week of mandatory conferences at the mid term and at the final to go over their entire portfolio up to that point, but I don't think that could take the place of the comments on the essay.
ReplyDeletePart of me LOVES this idea----but I feel bad for the student who will not get comments or come to see me. I think my experience would be similar to the prof's who initially told me about this----my worst students would just take their lumps and disappear---perhaps what would have happened anyway, but with almost no direct commentary from me on their writing (if they don't make it to the mid term conference). Maybe they never look at my comments anyway (my handwriting is bad too---I type my end comments because it actually takes me less time). So that would be a good reason to just go ahead with it.
Sigh, I love the idea but I can't make it feel "right" enough to actually do it.
I, too, like the idea but it is true that the bad writer who wishes to improve is the student who needs to the help the most.
ReplyDeleteHow about you return an ungraded photocopy of the truly horific papers with a note that the student needs to schedule an appointment if he or she wishes to get the graded copy returned and counted for a grade. Now the students who want to improve will come to office hours and get the help you are offering. The students who know that they wrote a bad paper and don't care will skip it and earn the 0 you've already reported.
Honestly, I rarely correct written assignments for my students. Now, I'm in science so we don't have as many, but I am quite stingy with comments. For lab reports, I will do drafts and comment on the drafts and then only use a rubric for the final version. My rubrics are great though, I break them down into 5% segments, but I just put numbers on it. If the students have questions about the grade, they have to come see me.
ReplyDeleteI like the rubrics, because it requires less effort on my part, but the students can see what ares they have issues in and some will come talk to me about their grade when they are uncertain of what to fix.
At the end of the semester, no comments for sure. They don't read them at the end anyway.
For lower level classes, my rule is that if you want comments, you have to make an appt. Then I do comments before the meeting. I'm not sure that anyone has ever taken me up on it. For upper-level classes I have the papers due earlier and use a rubric.
ReplyDeleteI have this policy (except I don't give a week), and MY GOD does it make my life better. Here's the saying you have to remember: "don't care about your students' grades more than they do".
ReplyDeleteYou spend, what, half an hour agonizingly writing those comments on the struggling students' papers. And then on the next paper, they make all the same errors. Know why? They don't read the comments. I once saw a student leave a colleague's office after she gave back his horrible paper with a ton of comments on it, and he threw it in the trash 10 seconds later.
"No comments on late work", which in my policy includes "no arguing about your grade" lets students be honest about how much they care about your input. I don't judge mine for that, either. Sometimes good students who care get pushed for time, and then they take the option of handing in late, and they APOLOGIZE. They say "I know comments are valuable, but I had 2 papers due" or whatever. Most of them don't hand in work late a second time.