I mention this due to an incident that occurred during the second hour of my class yesterday evening. I was teaching a late afternoon/early evening Statistics class and we were having a lively discussion about probability and gaming. About five minutes after our break ended, there was a knock at the rear door of the classroom, which is normally locked. Thinking it was one of my students, I toyed around by saying, “Halllloooooo! That door’s locked. Try the front one.” I hear, “OK!” and think that my student is slightly embarrassed but alright with it. I have that kind of relationship with this class.
Well, it wasn’t one of my students. It was someone totally unknown to me. Someone with a question. That had to be answered now.
“What class is this?”
“Statistics.”
“Oh, good. I need to . . .”
“Hold it right there. I’m in the middle of class. Come back in 45 minutes when we’re done.”
“But I need . . .”
“When we’re done.”
“Fine.”
I was completely civil in tone and volume during the exchange, mostly due to the initial interaction. The random student may have misunderstood. However I wasn’t so civil 10 minutes later when the door opened again.
“Excuse me, but I need to talk to you now.”
“Excuse ME, but you’re interrupting my class AGAIN. Come back when we’re done.”
“Fine.”
I was a little flustered at this point, but since I enjoy the currently discussed topic so much, it didn’t last long. Only about another 5 minutes.
“I need to do this NOW.”
“You are interrupting AGAIN. You will leave NOW. Whatever it is WILL wait until we’re done or it won’t happen AT ALL. Do you understand?”
“But . . .”
"DO . . . YOU . . . UNDERSTAND?"
"Yes."
“Then leave.”
At this point, I was beyond miffed, but again, since I like the current topic, I got through the rest relatively well.
Finally, we finished class. Oddly enough, Random Student was waiting.
“Can you add me to your class?”
Normally, not an odd question. Odd in this case because we’re 5 weeks beyond the add deadline.
“No.”
“But, I just got out of the hospital and my counselor said that all I needed to do is talk to you.”
“I’m sorry, but we just completed the sixth week of class out of sixteen. I will not add anyone, whatever the reason.”
“But I’m extremely intelligent. I can get caught up easily.”
“It’s not a matter of your ability. Based on past experience, that doesn’t matter. We’ve done too much already. Even if this would be your only class, you wouldn’t be able to catch up.”
“Yes, I would. My counselor said you had to sign this.”
While our counselors have occasionally made fast and loose statements in the past, I know that this one is not one they would make. Even if one did, based on Podunk CC’s rules and regulations, I was by no means required to do anything of the sort. At this point, I started getting curt.
“I am not required to sign your petition, nor would I even if required, for your benefit. You WILL NOT be able to catch up. My answer is no. I’m done with this.”
“But . . .”
“NO.”
“But I . . .”
“NO.”
“Seriously . . .”
“NO. You interrupted my class twice with something that easily could have waited. Even if I would have been inclined to accommodate you, based on that alone, I wouldn’t. I’m done with this. Please leave.” At which point, I went to the couple of students that stuck around to ask a couple of topical questions.
Random Student left, but not before saying, “Well, God bless you anyway.”
I normally wouldn’t have an issue with a student in this situation, but Random Student interrupted class twice after the initial contact. That shit pisses me off.
Unfortunately, since I’m the only professor at Podunk CC that teaches Statistics, I’m probably going to be required to deal with this self-important twit next semester.
Fuck.
Go with the Shaun of the Dead method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIbxCBBJNk
ReplyDeleteA kid this clueless isn't going to graduate anyways so might as well add them and let them crash->burn->dropout as quickly as possible.
This student has mental health issues. Trying to break in on a class in progress once could be clumsiness (couldn't hear that the class was going on from outside the door, perhaps). Trying to do so three times shows such utter lack of a grasp of social clues that it has to mean there's an underlying pathology of some kind. I assume the hospital this student was in was for mental problems. I wouldn't be offended - this student doesn't sound rude, he sounds disturbed.
ReplyDeleteI bet he doesn't come back next semester. I wouldn't worry.
Yeah, odds are good that you'll see him again.l
DeleteThat was my first thought, as well.
DeleteI think this happens a lot. It happens to me, weeks late, every semester. He sounds like he's not used to hearing no.
ReplyDeleteJeebus. ^MA's post above made some good points. "Just got out of the hospital" combined with this sort of behavior would make me very wary.
ReplyDeleteGood luck.
MA's conjecture rings true with me, too. I do understand the impulse that leads parents and counselors working with a young person struggling with mental health issues to say "let's see if (s)he can take a college class; that will give hir some structure and social interaction and perhaps a sense of achievement." But starting the class 1/3 of the way into the semester isn't going to achieve that. And, as I've said before, a person who isn't ready, socially or psychologically, to hold down a basic minimum-wage job part-time probably also isn't ready to go to college, even part-time (the state of the economy, and the resulting competition for minimum-wage jobs, does complicate this a bit). Really, wouldn't it be better in this case for the prospective student to get hir structure and socialization from some sort of volunteer activity, at least until the beginning of the next term? Or, if that's too much to ask of the people running volunteer-dependent organizations (and I do understand that problem, too), how about just putting the prospective student in charge of making family meals or keeping on top of the laundry or sprucing up the yard/house for a month or two, maybe with a support group and some structured social activities? I think people default to "take a college class" because it feels like it's getting the prospective student back to "normal," but the desire to rush that process can sometimes be part of the problem.
ReplyDeleteI'm not impressed. With this Statistics professor. He or she thinks that the student is a self-important twit? That's rich. How more "self-important" can you get than thinking that a student could never, ever, ever teach themselves 6 weeks of materials that you spent 6 weeks droning on in lecture. Really? No one ever learns except when they are being lectured to by a self-important twit, er, professor? I mean seriously. Is this just an echo chamber where self-important twits pat others on the back and cheer on the right to say "No"? So, your college gives you the POWER to say "No" in this situation and you used it. Hurray for you.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the reason the student kept interrupting is that since he or she had already missed 6 classes he really didn't want to miss any more. Oh, and gawd forbid the student wouldn't know the right door to use. But we'll never know, because self-important professor didn't take two minutes to find out the circumstances of the late request.
When I started reading the post, I thought I was going to encounter someone asking for a real favor - - like someone asking you to help them move, or like asking if you'll provide a ride to the airport at 3 a.m.. But please. A "favor" is asking to join your class? Oh sure, if you look at it as one more final exam to grade, then it might mean one more scan tron to insert. But this self-important professor thinks that letting a student have a "chance" to attend and pass his or her class is a favor? Perhaps only in the literal translation of the word. And perhaps only because self-important professor has the power to say "No."
I don't have a problem with not permitting the student to attend if that was the decision. But seriously, how long would it have taken, now that the student has already interrupted,to find out that the student wanted to add the class? A minute? Two minutes? It took more time to constantly rebuff the interrupter than it would have taken to handle it right then and there. I'm sure that the other students would not have suffered greatly from having lost two minutes of self-important professors lecture time.
But the self-important professor who uses such scholarly terms like F**k, Sh** and P*ss and calls students who want to learn "twits" can't be bothered to give a chance to a student who was so inconsiderate as to want to attend his or her class. That's rich.
Hi Constance. I don't think I've seen you here before. Likely you've broken a couple of the blog rules with your comment above. So if you plan on sticking around and being a part of our community, it'd be great if you reviewed them.
DeleteThe site is for college profs who like to gather, bitch, vent our spleens about the all the things that put gravel in the oatmeal of an otherwise perfectly wonderful career.
If you're looking for that, please to - well, in the manner - enjoy.
Hi, Constance--
DeleteThe RGM has already covered some of the problems with your comment (and yes, we curse here -- precisely to reduce the temptation to curse at/in the presence of our students).
In case you'd like to learn a bit more about how college actually works, from the instructor's perspective (a very useful thing for student or prospective student, which I suspect you are, or maybe you're a parent in a position to advise a student), here are a few things you might learn from Pat's post:
--It's becoming increasingly rare for a class meeting to consist of lecture alone. In fact, Pat mentions that "a lively discussion" was in process. Discussion and other in-class activities, whether stand-alone or interspersed throughout a lecture, offer a chance for students to apply or otherwise practice the information/ideas/concepts they've been given via lecture and/or reading; in short, they're a way of building skills, which is really what college classes are all about. Otherwise, you could read a textbook or watch some videos and pass a test, and you'd get college credit. In fact, there are some online schools that basically allow you to do that, and for some subjects, that might even represent a satisfactory approach. However, in most cases, I think you'll find the guidance of an instructor as you work through the processes involved in his/her academic discipline a wise investment of both time and money. In classes structured this way, you're unlikely to be able to pass the tests without having participated in the class activities that lead up to them; when an instructor tells you that, (s)he is trying to help you avoid wasting time and money, not worrying out one more test to grade (in part because, frankly, it's highly unlikely that someone who shows up five weeks late will actually complete any work; whatever factors interfered with the student participating in the class before have a way of popping up again, especially when tests and major assignments come due).
--Unless there is an emergency threatening life or limb of the inhabitants of the classroom, or the professor or a student needs to removed to attend to a similarly serious outside emergency (in which case I'd expect to see a uniformed university police officer, or at least a member of staff, at my classroom door), the time to get a professor's attention is *never* during class. Before or after *may* work (but remember that the professor may need to set up for the class or rush to the next one; ask whether it's a good time first). Office hours, or, failing that, an appointment arranged by email or phone (if the individual office phones haven't succumbed to budget cuts) are the appropriate times for discussing individual matters. If you can't see why interrupting the professor while he/she is working is wrong, think about it from the perspective of the other students in the class: they've paid for the professor's time and attention during this period, and the individual student who tries to have a private conversation is expecting to appropriate it to him/herself. Yes, a professor may have an equally-long exchange with an individual student in the course of discussion, but part of the purpose of that is for students who have similar questions or misconceptions (or who'd never even thought of an interesting idea the professor is helping the student develop) to listen to and learn from the exchange.
I'm sure there's more that could be mined from Pat's post and your response about the differing expectations of professors and students; maybe others will choose to do so.
This was my first post. I just recently stumbled onto your site, a week or so ago, and thought it might offer medicinal and therapeutic support for my own trials and tribulations in the classroom. I've been reading daily but only inspired to write just now. I participate in other public and private forums with commiserating faculty and usually support the faculty. But not always. And when I commiserate I expect to be called out if my perception of the situation is too limited.
ReplyDeleteI'm not exactly sure where I went astray after reading the blog rules. Must I agree with the poster? I was struck by the hypocrisy of calling a student such words (self-important twit) when my read of the same facts did not support that conclusion at all, and instead suggested that the poster had an over-inflated sense of self-importance. And why is it such a "favor" to grant a student an "add"? If students didn't want to attend our classes we wouldn't have jobs. I thought I was adding another perspective to the discussion and a different way of looking at the same facts.
Is this forum just where we go to pat each other on the back, regardless of the lament, and say "way to go" and then punctuate it with words that are rather fourth-gradish (sh*t and p*ss)? If so, perhaps my trial subscription has run its course.
Constance, you lying little troll, go fuck yourself sideways.
DeleteRGM, go ahead and delete my response. But delete this vicious little shit too. He is lying and he is doing his best to destroy discourse on this page and guess what - he has fucking succeeded, because I have fucking had it wit these fucking little shits. Get rid of this vicious little creep please. With the rationalizing fuckheadedness and the "oh my goodness did I do something wrong?" yes, he fucking did something wrong.
And I know the name is feminine. This is not a female. This is a little boy living in his Mom's basement being gleefully malicious. Fuck him. Run him out of here on a rail.
And, as I say, feel free to delete my comment too, because if I haven't broken every single rule of this blog it wasn't for lack of trying. But I have fucking had it.
CL, when it is polite to interrupt a meeting of many people to ask a question? Unless it is, "Where is a doctor to help a person having a heart attack", you don't interrupt. The idea that a person would repeatedly try this, after being told to wait by the person in charge, makes the student a self important twit.
DeleteNo, the professor is not expected to stop, converse with the student and let the rest of the class sit there. First, the prof didn't know what the question was. My experience is that if it's a short question, such as "Where's the library?" then the student can go ask somebody else who is not currently teaching. If it's a long question, obviously I don't have time. conversations between students and faculty about the student's schedule should be private, regardless of whether the student cares. The professor was thinking about the quality of education provided to the students currently in the class, which would not be a characteristic of a somebody who considered himself self-important or was a twit.
Now listen, we use some strong language around here when we talk about idiots - students, professors, administrators, and, in this case, maybe you. If you can't see the difference between this website and afternoon tea at the Dean's house, then God help you.
Okay, I was wrong. It sounds like you're actually an instructor. I'm curious: *is* it possible to catch up in one of your courses simply by reading the textbook and/or watching lectures that you've posted on a LMS or elsewhere? If so, what role do you feel you're playing in the educational process, and are you comfortable with it? We've had some lively discussions now and then about the trend away from lecturing, especially in the STEM fields; maybe you have something to add to that?
DeleteFor whatever it's worth, as you'll see from reading my comment above, your comment struck me as coming from someone who didn't have experience teaching a college class (I'm not sure exactly why, but I think it was the references to lecture and scantrons, which represent a model of pedagogy that many here are at the very least resistant to, though there are certainly exceptions, perhaps especially among those in the STEM fields. Even more than that, I'm surprised that an instructor would be willing to be interrupted during class for a one-on-one conversation; that's certainly something on which I, with increasing difficulty, try to hold the line. I also think that's what prompted Pat's designating the student "self-important," though, as some comments above suggest, "self-involved" or even "troubled to the point of having extreme difficulty with appropriate social interaction" might be better descriptions).
In any case, welcome. Sorry you got a somewhat suspicious greeting; we've had some trolls around here lately.
The above was written at the same time MA and BA were commenting. Obviously, we're all seeing somewhat different things in your comments, and reacting accordingly. 'Tis the nature of the interwebs, I suppose. If you aren't a bored student on spring break (or a suspended one waiting out a longer hiatus), welcome, and I hope you'll participate further. It sounds like you do, indeed, have a somewhat different perspective to share, and new voices/perspectives are always welcome (really; they are).
DeleteYike! Things are a bit tense around here right now. I think I must have missed some of the excitement.
DeleteAs another new name in the comments (who would like to be seen as a legitimate poster), I want to emphasize the importance of early impressions.
DeleteTo build on CC's post, it's not that different perspectives are unwelcome, but rather that there is a difference between sharing an alternate view and bursting onto the scene with guns blazing and character judgments flying.
So, sorry if you're indeed legit and you've now been scared away, but starting off on the inflammatory foot is not going to win you any support on this blog (if you've read the blog closely at all you would know why). Given your first post, I think MA's skepticism is justified.
By the way, welcome, Matilda. I've been meaning to say that I love your moniker -- both the literary allusion, and the appropriateness to the space.
DeleteIt occurs to me that another possibility is that Constance does not teach through lecture/scantron methods herself, but harbors some prejudices against those who do, or against Statistics proffies more generally, which led her to react especially strongly to Pat's language, which was admittedly strong in places (while still well in keeping, I'd say, with CM venting conventions).
DeleteIn any case, Matilda has the right idea: entering any community gradually is definitely the best idea in any case, and especially when there are trolls abroad.
I think it's plausible to join a class 6 weeks late and still be able to pass. But a kid who is this much of a space cadet and thinks interrupting a lecture for an add/drop signature is a good idea? Yeah this student isn't the type who has a chance in hell of pulling it off.
ReplyDeleteIf you had any experience with teaching at all, you'd have observed that few to no students who have missed more than two weeks of any demanding class such as statistics ever pass it. Not that it much matters: all Pat needs to say is, "...but university rules don't allow you to register this late in the semester," and that will be that, at least for this semester. I don't envy Pat in future semesters: a student whose FIRST course of action is to disrupt a class, and then TWICE does so after explicitly being told not to, will be almost as much fun to have in class as a knuckle-dragger like you.
DeleteI think I've made my feelings reasonably clear.
ReplyDeleteThere are people with whom there is some point in attempting civil engagement. And then there are trolls.
Everyone on the planet grasps that if a student tries three times to interrupt a class in session to force the professor to attend to their personal concerns RIGHT NOW, that student is either unbelievably rude or has mental health issues too serious for the prof to attend to at any time (let alone in the middle of class.)
Anyone who pretends they don't grasp that, and uses that pretense to rain shit at length down on the original poster, is a troll. I call troll. And if we didn't have enough proof, the second comment, going on at disingenuous length "oh my! do I have to AGREE with everyone? My goodness! I didn't REALIZE we ALL have to think in LOCKSTEP around here!" is classic troll behaviour. a) I'm innocent, b) you've all drunk the koolaid, c) it's all about me! me! let's talk about me!
Okay, I'll talk about you. You're a troll. Fuck off.
In case I wasn't clear enough: don't waste your time trying to educate or engage with this one. This one knows exactly what he's doing. Troll.
I think I've made my feelings reasonably clear.
ReplyDeleteThere are people with whom there is some point in attempting civil engagement. And then there are trolls.
Everyone on the planet grasps that if a student tries three times to interrupt a class in session to force the professor to attend to their personal concerns RIGHT NOW, that student is either unbelievably rude or has mental health issues too serious for the prof to attend to at any time (let alone in the middle of class.)
Anyone who pretends they don't grasp that, and uses that pretense to rain shit at length down on the original poster, is a troll. I call troll. And if we didn't have enough proof, the second comment, going on at disingenuous length "oh my! do I have to AGREE with everyone? My goodness! I didn't REALIZE we ALL have to think in LOCKSTEP around here!" is classic troll behaviour. a) I'm innocent, b) you've all drunk the koolaid, c) it's all about me! me! let's talk about me!
Okay, I'll talk about you. You're a troll. Fuck off.
In case I wasn't clear enough: don't waste your time trying to educate or engage with this one. This one knows exactly what he's doing. Troll.
I'm a student. Have learned a lot from this site. What professors put up with on a near-daily basis is ridiculous. I did some of the same silly things posters complain about.
ReplyDeleteThat student seemed completely out of line. Whether the student was just rude or has a disorder I don't know, but there was no reason for the student to interrupt the class the way he/she did.
"God bless you anyway." Egads. I would have said, "Thank you, and may Satan bless you with gnats in your nose for a thousand years. Have a NICE day." Good thing I'm not a teacher.
Psst. Is any one there? Good. I’ve got to be a little quiet. My hijackers are in the next room. It appears that at some point in the past 12 hours, I was rendered unavailable to the internet and brought here. I’ve gotten a couple of glimpses outside through some curtains, and it appears that I’m being held somewhere just outside of Athens, Ohio.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can hear from the next room, my hijackers seem to be easily distracted. I should be able to render them comatose by lecturing at them, droning on for a few hours. Once I do that, I’ll debilitate them further using the spare scantron forms I always carry with me, criss-crossing them with paper cuts.
Don’t fear for me, fellow CMers. I’ll be back with you in Oxford before you know it.
Uh-oh. Here they come. I’ve got to go.
“Hey guys, did you know that you could determine how likely it is that you will win the lottery jackpot using probability? Let me tell you more . . .”