There Is No Pressure for a Girl to Be a Girlby Caroline Kitchener
Walk down Prospect Avenue in Princeton, New Jersey on the first Sunday in February, and you'll find a horde of shivering college sophomores huddled together on a front lawn, smeared in ketchup, maple syrup, and egg yolk. They're organized into stations: one group choking down live goldfish, the other pounding out push-ups as senior members shovel dog food into their mouths.
These are the students trying to win membership at Tiger Inn (or TI), widely known as the frattiest and hardest-drinking of Princeton University's 11 eating clubs -- exclusive institutions similar to co-ed fraternities. This group is loud, unafraid, and endowed with a collectively remarkable gag reflex. But the most striking thing about the students standing on this lawn? Most of them are girls.
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I find it sad. My apologies to those whom I know will be offended, but I've always felt that women were a civilizing influence on men, and consequently generally preferred their company. I guess I'm just getting old, but I find myself ever more disgusted by the morality of younger people in general. Perhaps I'm also just self-loathing (obviously), but in my previous life as a sexually wanton (but not nearly as much as I'd like to have been at the time) experimenter with almost any mind-altering substance I could get my hands on, I never thought that was I was doing was exactly "right".
ReplyDeletePS: For me, an easy ethical question about such behaviour is "Would you want your mother to know what you were doing." If you answer no, then you do probably feel deep down that there's something wrong with it. I'd like to know how many of these women who want to be judged when it comes to sex and debauchery by the same standards as men would want their mothers to know what they've been up do.
ReplyDeleteI came here to talk about what it must be like to feel a live goldfish wiggling in your mouth, and down your throat, and then feel it slowly die in your stomach.
ReplyDeleteBut then Doctor BPD had to ruin it with a bunch of unnecessary sexist bullshit. What the fuck, dude? You have to start spouting off a bunch of crap about shocking young women, when there are plenty of inane things that young men do at the very same time? You've got to be kidding me, dickhead.
Could anyone guess how much mail I'm going to get tonight? How many people will threaten to quit the page unless I delete the dickhead comment by one of the "favorites"? Clearly I've decided I agree Monkey and so I'm castrating bitch as well.
DeleteSeriously, this is what happens. Tomorrow morning - because I'm not reading the mail now - will be withering. And I'm going to be a c*&t whether I delete it or leave it up.
This is why Fab made the rules of misery. We try to remember we're a community. Well, not always.
And there's another group who'll say, "Well, this is the NFL." I could almost write it up tonight. I've seen it enough.
I'm going to bed.
Not a castrating bitch. Just a hypocrite. Apply the rules as written, adhere to their spirit, or pick and choose as if it's your personal blog.
DeleteI have not yet read below, but I want to officially apologize for being a hot-headed moron who just posts a knee-jerk reaction. Clearly I should have put more thought and nuance into my initial comment.
DeleteI did apologize, since I thought some would take my comments in a way that I don't they were meant and in a way that I don't think they really should be taken.
DeleteI don't consider it sexist to think that, on the whole, women behave in a slightly more civilized manner than men. There is a reason "frat boy" is a far more common insult than "sorority girl", and simply look at the violent crime rates based on sex. Heck, I know some feminists that argue that women should hold themselves to different standards from men. So yes, it's sexist in that I'm saying there is some gender-based differences in behaviour, but that's why we have the concept of gender anyway: if there weren't differences, then we wouldn't have to distinguish "male" and "female."
And since the article was talking about women, I focussed on women. I will now expand it to say that if a young man would be ashamed to admit to his mother that he spent the night drinking himself into near-alcohol poisoning and that he participated in what in other years would be called an orgy, he probably has some sense that his behaviour is, in some way, wrong.
I truly didn't intend those comments to offend, and I'm not sure they can truly be called sexist.
Throwing out terms like "dickhead" don't help.
This is why I'm not a moderator. I would cut bpd's remarks and boldface Monkey's. of course they'd be the Rules of Kimmie.
ReplyDeletePlease don't take down comments unless they are obviously spam or produced by a troll. I hate that. It's better to address the issues openly.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Even the spam can be entertaining.
DeleteYou would because you're a twisted and pleasure-starved asshole. This is an issue I have with you and want to deal with it openly.
DeletePP, I can't stop laughing at this! Well done.
DeleteI appreciate your willingness to address this issue in the open with me. I respect you for it, knowing how difficult it must have been for you to bring up. I feel we have a stronger relationship now, which makes me more confident that we can overcome the struggles in the future that all friendships must endure.
Hi Stella. What if someone from the page now calls Monkey a frigid f*^%ng b€#h? Is that okay to leave up as well?
ReplyDeleteNo one called Monkey that. If they did I'd support taking that down. I'm not sure I entirely disagree with Dr. BPD. I believe women can be a civilizing influence on men, and I also think EVERYONE would behave better if they asked themselves what their mother would think about what they were doing.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that women are any different than men in this regard is what's problematic. The point is that all these idiots at Princeton, men and women, are behaving badly. And that sometimes that the advancement of gender equality in all areas doesn't always benefit women. We get to do the same dumbass things that men do.
Which seems to be what the author of the Atlantic piece is suggesting.
Stella is being obtuse because she knows Leslie would never cut a comment calling another person a dickhead. Why? Because there ARE favored ones on here. AM is one. Stella obviously is. AM gets to break the rules and personally attack BPD and nothing will be done. This is why people leave. Favoritism. If BPD or I called someone, a woman, something comparable to dickhead, Leslie would enforce the rules.
ReplyDeleteI, personally, would like to hear support for your accusation that Beaker Ben is "a twisted and pleasure-starved asshole."
DeleteAs for me, I am a fat, high-handed cunt, and I can give you a long list of character references to attest to that.
I have no doubt about you. You've supported the rights of AM to call someone else a dickhead simply because you agree with her. I'm someone from the blog, male, and afraid commenting on this would put me on the wrong side of the females who get off Scot free with Leslie's selective rules.
DeleteI'm not quite sure what a "real man" is, but I am pretty sure that real men aren't afraid of getting "on the wrong side" of anonymous female personas on the internet.
DeleteI can guaran-God damn-tee you that I've been an asshole on this blog occasionally and I try my best to be twisted, at least in a humorous sense. Being pleasure-starved is a little harder to explain. The best I can say in that regard is that I've been on a diet, which has denied me a considerable amount of pleasure (no more biscuits and gravy, at least not as a bedtime snack) and I'm definitely starving because of it. Yeah, I think PP covers it pretty well.
DeleteThis is why there are rules, to keep calling a dickhead off the table as a discourse option. I agreed with Monkey until she said that. I don't respond to insults delivered like that. It lessens the worth of the blog.
ReplyDeleteThat's just the kind of thing a dickhead you like would say, Hector. Shame on you.
DeleteYou're calling me a dickhead? I have lost all of my respect for you. You've succeeded in offending me and for the life of me I don't know why you are allowed to do that.
DeleteTo be fair, aren't we all dickheads to some degree?
DeleteHector, it should be obvious that Stella is being over-the-top and not serious at all in her comment. She should have been even more over-the-top, however, to make it more obvious, as this type of intent is hard to convey in a very short blog post.
DeleteI don't believe Stella would write that. Are we sure it's her?
ReplyDeleteYes, it's me. Trying to lessen the worth of the blog.
DeleteOr alleviate tension. Or whatever.
It doesn't take much to twist academics into a tight little knot.
Please, please, more on Beaker Ben and his status as a "twisted, pleasure-starved asshole".
I read his comment as trying to lighten the mood, like the spirit of your comment to Hector. If you read PP's comment in that light, it's a well-written bit of faux outrage/comedy. It was written in such high dungeon that it couldn't be serious.
DeleteAt least, that's what I hope. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist. If it was really an insult, then it's still amusing but not hilarious.
Yes, that's exactly it. If I were really trying to insult y'all I wouldn't have started by calling myself a fat, high-handed cunt.
DeleteWait, are some people reading this as a serious discussion? I thought this was all just teasing.
DeleteIt's hard to tease academics because they take everything so seriously. But it's worth trying.
DeleteYou're right. I can't tell you how often I end up in a "discussion" on here when all I really wanted was banter and some light-hearted teasing and camaraderie. But someone gets it up their craw (what is a craw?) that I was dissing their opinion by making light of it and then I get drawn into defending a point I was joking about that I really don't even CARE about. And I wonder "Why am I discussing this? I don't care. He can win. Really. He wants to make a point and come across as all knowing. Let him do that. It's not worth the effort when you don't even CARE about the topic."
DeleteSo this was a refreshing break when I saw that we could be light hearted and make fun of ourselves. Dickheads we are. All of us.
Not that I don't care about drunken debauchery... but...
DeleteI'm beginning to think that this could be our motto. "College Misery: where dickhead profs come to bitch about everything."
DeleteAs the wise Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "No one can make you feel like a dickhead without your consent."
ReplyDeleteI think she said that after one of FDR's little fireside chats.
Virtually none of this is useful. I'd ask all of you to let it go.
ReplyDeleteOkay. But not everything on this blog is made to be "of use".
DeleteTo Hector: I was kidding. I have no way of knowing whether you are a dickhead or not.
If Leslie k leaves up Academic Monkey's dickhead remark it proves that there are rules for favorites and rules for the rest. I don't want to think that but it appears to be true. I came here from RYS and never miss a day. Stella, you owe some apologies. I thought BB + PP were funny though!
ReplyDeleteIndeed. I find it fascinating that CM would post something of this magnitude. Perhaps a bit of cognitive dissonance on the part of the mods?
DeleteWhy is Leslie leaving up the original "dickhead" comment. That is seriously against blog rules. Some of the rest of this is funny, but I do wonder about the wisdom of not addressing the fair application of the blog rules.
ReplyDeleteCan we leave up the comment and redact the dickhead?
DeleteIf you can't redact it completely, cold water will make it smaller. Or have your young child walk in the bedroom at the worst possible time. Mom leaving a message on the answering machine works too.
DeleteI am afraid to comment. But, I love this place!
DeleteBB: good comeback.
DeleteI vote we leave it up for entertainment value alone, not because it shows favoritism, but the whole comment thread will make no sense without it. And it's funny.
I wish sooooo much that we could edit comments. I feel as though much of this thread could have been maintained if only I had stopped myself with that last sentence, or even by omitting that last unfortunate word.
DeleteAh, regret. Now that is useless. Oh well. Sorry, gang.
You're all dickheads. Favorites and not.
ReplyDeleteTo the point, it does seem sex and gender equity carries with it the necessary mandate that availability to vices be equal to virtues, so can't we just discuss how disgusting these women and men act by publicly debasing themselves in the name of "community/sorority/fraternity"?
To quote the most important aspect of BPD's post (that got completely obscured by Monkey's distraction):
"I find myself ever more disgusted by the morality of younger people in general."
Can I get an AMEN? Or am I being a dickhead for criticizing young people? (you know, the raison d'etre of the blog)
AMEN!!
DeleteAMEN
DeleteIt just all seems so pointless. Haven't they got anything better to do? [aaaaand now I sound like my grandma. Oh well.]
I don't think attacking another community member's opinion by calling him a dickhead is anything at all like teasing.
ReplyDeleteI am deeply offended to my core, as I am grievously wounded by people using "PP" when referring to Prickly Prof's CM handle - that's MY fucking acronym, going back years and years! You're all fucking dickhead assholes for using it for someone else! For shame, for shame, FOR SHAME on how standards have dropped on this once grand and mighty blog! Leslie, Fab, Cal, I PROTEST!! J'ACCUSE!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI love all you dickheads. You, along with the new banner have made my day. How sad is that?
ReplyDeleteAha! Now I see where all the "dickhead" stuff was coming from (it took the "apology" on page 1 to send me back here; shoulda known this one would generate some heat).
ReplyDeleteWell, since I can't say it under the apology/announcement of mod change, thanks to Leslie, and congrats on her daughter's engagement (I hope *he* isn't one of the dubious/dickhead boyfriends, but an improvement on said tradition), and welcome back to Fab!
I wholeheartedly agree with the thanks to Leslie! The few times I've needed her help in fixing some stupidity on my part (which I normally try to keep out of this realm), she was ever so gracious in doing so. Best wishes on the planning endeavors to the MOB!
DeleteWelcome back, Fab!
I move that "dickhead" become a new inside joke - like the Duck.
ReplyDelete"Duckheads" if you will.
Awesome. Sauce.
DeleteOrange, if you will...
I am just devastated that my poorly-delivered comment led Leslie to leave us for a while. My sincere apologies all around, and believe me that future comments will be kept under much more control.
ReplyDeleteMore thanks to Leslie, the only one around here who doesn't have a dick for a head. And to clarify: I support personal insults being removed from blog. When I initially said I didn't like entire comments removed I thought the implied suggestion was that we remove the comments of Dr. BPD, which I would oppose. Removing a personal insult is perfectly appropriate. And I'm glad A-M apologized. As for my insults they were all in fun, but I probably should have been even more obvious about it.
ReplyDeleteYou dumbass dickheads.
I think the treatment of Leslie was deplorable. You all know she does the page for free, right, and to inundate her with emails calling her a hypocrite is just so ridiculous. She even commented that the situation she was in was tough but people still found a way to gang up on her. I emailed with Fab this afternoon and I was just shocked at some of the bullshit that got hurled her way.
ReplyDeleteHarumph, harumph, harumph! My vacation can't end soon enough!
ReplyDeleteGeez. I go out of town for a week and this is what happens??!!
ReplyDeleteYou're all grounded.