As a long time reader of both this site and the previous incarnation, I have come to the denizens of CM to ask for advice.
I am an adult student who will be graduating from an SLAC in a few weeks. I’m a good student. I try not to be a flake, I accept responsibility for my actions, and I don’t grade grub. I attend classes, do the work, participate frequently and it shows; I have a 4.0 average.
My question: What now?
My profs tell me I should go to grad school
. Personally, this has a great deal of appeal. I love field work, research, and writing. I even like teaching (a skill I picked up in my previous work life as a community educator, working in county jails). I’d get to stay in academia, hang with the cool (and the not-so-cool) people, and do my own work. Pretty sweet.Downsides? Money and time. While I have had a 100% free ride (merit scholarships rock) as an undergrad, funding for grad school is always a little dicey. I’d like a cushy spot that lets me do what I want to do. I figure I have a 1:20 chance of getting the spot I really want. And then there is the little matter of age. I’m frickin’ old. If it takes me over 7 years to earn that fancy hat
you PhD’s wear, I’ll be old enough to collect social security. Plus, will I find a job after I graduate? I’ve talked to a number of post-docs, adjuncts, and temporary faculty and the outlook is depressing.The alternative is to find a job. It would be nice to have a little extra time and money. I’ve got a fair amount of experience and now I have a degree to back that up. I’m pretty marketable, especially in social services, and I have a line on a few options. I’ve got good connections to draw on, so odds are about 1:5 I’ll get a decent job.
Problems? I’m more or less limited by my family to the area where I live. Many of the jobs that are available in my little, benighted corner of the world are fairly low paying, entry/mid level jobs, with somewhat limited options for advancement. I don’t have a problem with that per se, but these are the same types of jobs that I had before I went to college. Shit, they are the reason I went to college. Having gone full circle, I will be right back where I started. Depressing.
So, what do I do? Go for the dream and damn the consequences? Or do I think about this rationally and take a job?
What would you do? Be honest. Be brutal.
Thanks in advance,
The Cranky Old Lady
The odds of getting a job are so bad that I really encourage you to think hard before going to grad school. I just landed my first tenure track job, but it took four years on the job market to get it. If I hadn't had a financial support besides myself (my generous and patient husband supported me finacially despite great hardship), I would have been sunk many years ago. Plus, I have so much debt from school (100k in loans) that I might never be able to breathe free. Anyone who has other options should really think twice before going to grad school. Plus, if you're limited geographically, you might never find a tenure-track job.
ReplyDeleteThen again, if this is your biggest dream, you know... You only have this one life. But again, I'd say only go for it if your gut tells you that this is something you must do. Must! It's a very depressing thing to always be the best at everything and then consistently fail to get a job over years of trying. It's almost destroyed me, my marriage, and my family. I think things will get better now that I've landed something, but I'm moving across the country and leaving a lot behind to fulfill this dream. So I don't know.... It's up to you, ultimately. Just keep your eyes open for other opportunities in case this doesn't work out.
If you are already in your fifties, then the chances of landing a full-time job after earning a Ph.D. will be next to zero, unless:
ReplyDelete* You accomplish some groundbreaking research that puts you in ridiculously-high demand.
* You publish the pivotal/seminal/[insert superlative] BOOK on the topic, such that schools trip over you to offer you tenured advanced positions/endowed chairs.
* You get hired at the instution where you do your degree.
For any of this to come to fruition, you will need to be accepted to the BEST program in your field, and work like you never have before to make it all come about.
But if you simply demonstrate high achievement in the program offered in the school that happens to be convenient to where you live, and you send in your application for jobs alongside the dozens/hundreds/thousands of other applicants for the few available positions, then your chance of landing a teaching position of any worth would be about 275,000,000,000,000:1.
Get a job and go to grad school part-time.
ReplyDeleteGrad school has killed me. I will never recover. My dreams are dead. And I am not alone in this experience.
Get a job and avoid the ageism of academia, but do it part-time for fun and self-fulfillment if you must.
Those profs encouraging you to go to grad school have NO CLUE how bad it is now. Mine lied to me in the late 90s, and I resent the hell out of them.
I have mixed emotions about my answer because grad school was such a blast. I met so many friends and had such a good time. But of course I was a kid, single, etc.
ReplyDeleteI discourage students from going on to grad school now, at least the ones in my field. The potential for employment, actual gainful and full time employment is so bad that any encouragement borders on obscene.
The key questions I have are whether or not you have a spouse that can and will support you (emotionally and financially), and/or whether or not you have money enough to support yourself into retirement. If you don't have to work, and your spouse is okay with you not working or really EVER working (because you won't get a job when you get out), see if you can get at least a free ride from a school in a commutable distance from where you live. If you have to pay and you have money to do so, and again it won't strain your marriage or imperil your finances, why not?
ReplyDeleteBut you absolutely need to take the question of a "job" as a result of your degree completely out of the equation. You'd be getting this degree for your own edification. If you are in a situation in life where this is possible and logical for you, go for it. Think of it as a very time-consuming intellectual hobby.
Do NOT go for it if it will in any way imperil your permanent financial security, or your relationship with your spouse (if you have one). In other words, if you are already behind the curve with your contributions to a pension and social security, and/or you have a spouse that would resent you for basically not bringing in much or any money for the rest of your entire life while they worked (which is a lot of spouses, me included), getting a Ph.D. will ruin you financially and emotionally.
That's not a dream I'd want any part of.
This all depends upon your 1) undergraduate major and 2) your choice of major in grad school. At the R-1 I teach at, we had an amazing grad student here a number of years ago that was an anthro major from a really good program (where she had also taken a LOT of science courses). She did her PhD in Chemistry, specifically analytical radiochemistry. She was the rare exception, to be sure.
ReplyDeleteGrad school in the sciences, math, and engineering is almost always free: we need TA's so we have lots of assistantships (about 18K+/yr) and these almost always come with tuition waivers. Why? Simple ecomomics of supply and demand. There are very few qualified undergrads applying to these programs so we can fully fund our TA's. Contrast this to the almost criminally negligent way that most liberal arts programs work: vast armies of grad students keenly applying for a few assistantships and almost everyone pays tuition. Again, supply and demand. When graduation happens, the newly minted doctorate in History, English, Art, etc. is essentially unemployable because of the huge numbers of unemployed/underemployed other recent doctorates and another adjunct instructor working for 3K/semester is in the workforce.
Carefully consider your future. In my department, which is not especially unusual, we have had EVERY recent PhD placed into a postdoc, mostly paying about $50K/year. First professional non-postdoc salary (in THIS economy!) is about $75K/year. This isn't meant to start the old science vs. liberal arts spin, but to not mention the reality I see daily would be negligent to say the least.
Grad school, despite what some may say, is not job training.
ReplyDeleteGrad school is an experience. There is no job on the other side of that experience. None. Ivy-league, full ride Princeton offer? There will be no job after that full ride is over. Nothing you can do will change that, as much fun as grad school can be.
So go to Grad school for the experience, if you like, but understand that you are paying for a 7 year semi-vacation from reality. You are not training for any sort of job.
Don't do it. You will be way happier if you don't. My profs sold me a line when I was in my undergrad too. They said, "the university education sector is booming, there is a great demand for college professors in the humanities!" Lies, all lies. I hope to God that I can convince my children to study engineering.
ReplyDeleteDo not do it. If you want more education, work until you retire, and then go back to school. Grad school can be really rewarding, smart people talking passionately about things you care about. But it is a really, really poor investment if jobs and money are at all a factor.
ReplyDeleteWould a grad school education help you get a better paying and more enjoyable social services job? If the answer to that question is "yes", and you can get funding, then my advice would be to do a Master's and figure it out from there. It's a year to two year commitment, it will show you how you feel about grad school, and, at least here in Canadia, it would qualify you for senior social service positions and a higher salary bracket.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with whatever you choose.
@Cranky: since you're graduating in a few weeks, and haven't yet applied to grad school, it sounds like you've got some time to consider, and perhaps experiment with, your options. You've got a few months to figure out whether there are any grad programs in your corner of the world (or in commutable distance) that would serve your purposes, and to ask some preliminary questions about what kinds of funding they offer before deciding whether to apply (applications are usually due in Dec./Jan.). And you have a year plus a summer before you could actually start a graduate program (at least one that works on a traditional admissions schedule), so that gives you time to see what the non-academic job market looks like. You might even find some way to combine the two options, such as working in some sort of on-campus social service job and going to school part-time with tuition remission.
ReplyDeleteLike several others above, I think the question in large part boils down to money: could you retire comfortably in seven years, whether or not you hold a job in the intervening period? Would you have the wherewithal to pay off loans in retirement? Unless the answer to both of the above questions is "yes," then full-time grad school, even with full tuition remission and a stipend, is probably not your best option.
On the other hand, if you're set financially whatever you do in the next few years, then graduate school would be a fine option. I'm sure you'll be a good seminar participant and TA, you'll fill up one spot in the program that won't be taken up by someone who actually needs to get a job when he/she graduates, and, even if you don't find paid work, I'm sure you could put your talents and training to good use for years as a volunteer ("old enough to draw social security" isn't really all that old).
But if you're hoping that grad school will lead to a higher salary, or will need it to do so in order to pay off loans, don't do it. Consider part-time grad school, pay-as-you-go or employer-funded, but don't spend your own money -- in hand or borrowed -- on it.
Beaker Ben would tell you to go do drugs instead. It's more responsible advice.
ReplyDeleteWell, Cranky, I'll tell you, for a start, that grad school was the best time I've ever had. I worked like a dog, but on stuff I loved, I made some of my best friends, and I married myself an awesome human being.
ReplyDeleteI was also insanely lucky, landed a job right away, and then landed a second close to home. (Monkey is wrong. Some people do still beat the odds. They're few and they won the lottery.)
But I was young and I had time to start over if things didn't work out. (Which I was sure they wouldn't.) So my advice to you is: don't go. Your particular situation has an exceptionally poor outlook. And here's why:
1. Ageism is alive and well in academia, and it plays particularly badly against women. If you look like you're on the wiser end of 45, you'll almost certainly be discriminated against in hiring for a junior position. Departments want to hire a long-term investment, or at least someone they imagine is fresh and entertaining to the students. Unfair, yes, but I've seen it in action and I know it happens.
2. If you have no mobility, you're out of the running. You have to be able to move, and then possibly to move again. Your chances of landing a position close to home after spending some time far away are much better, but this is what we're talking about, if you're really bloody lucky: a 2-year postdoc followed by a 1-year VAP gig somewhere else followed by 3-4 years in a first TT position somewhere far from home, followed potentially by major lifestyle compromises to end up near your hometown. That's the fast track.
That's advice specific to your situation, but I'd advise against going, even if you have money and a spouse who won't resent you, because when you get to the end of that 5-7 years, you'll love what you're doing far more than you do now. And then you'll have to give it up. It will be like cutting out your heart, and it may destroy those around you, not just you.
I can promise you, too, that academia won't bring you as much joy as you thought it would. I know very few academics who don't struggle to be happy and stay happy. And for the most part, we get our joy from the same pretty ordinary places as everyone else: our spouses, our kids, our families and friends. It's a job that's like an addiction: we think we need it and can't live without it, but it makes many of us deeply unhappy.
Don't.
ReplyDeleteIf you do, know it's only for fun.
It might not be fun.
You know the facts. At your age, the math is completely against you. I recommend finding a social services job and having them pay for your masters. If you are still interested in the PhD when you finish, economics aside, then jump in.
However, as others have said, if you are financially provided for, now and in retirement, then feel free to consider it as an option.
Not many previous responders have commented on the geographical limitation. If it is financially or emotionally important to your family for you to have a good job, you should find a way to broaden your possible search locations. I think it is extremely unlikely that you will find a satisfying academic job in a strongly limited geographic area.
On the other hand, if the school will fund you, and you would be happy (emotionally and financially) with a few adjunct classes in your retirement, then go for it. Your students and colleagues will love you for it and you won't care that the pay, benefits and hours would be better as a Wal-Mart greeter.
AACKKK!!
ReplyDeleteCass why would you say that I'm wrong about the odds here?? Having one person out of an Ivy League school get a job in the past year is not "beating hte odds!! Yet that is what happened to us. The rest of the students are scrambling for something -- anything -- and hating me and everyone else. That's like advising a poor person to go ahead and play the lottery because someone "beats the odds" eventually.
What a stupid thing to tell someone when they are asking for REALITY and not hippy-skippy bull shit positivism.
It's overly optimistic people like Cass that continue to encourage people with NO CHANCE of a career to "follow their unicorn dreams" and waste 7 years at below-poverty, debt-wracking life.
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe someone in their right mind would say going to grad school is a good idea because "ZOMG you totes might beat the odds!"
NO. THE ODDS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL HAVE DEBT AND UNEMPLOYMENT ON THE OTHER SIDE.
Oh, Monkey, saying people "beat the odds" *means* that the odds *are* overwhelmingly against you. They're *very* bad odds. Did you miss the part where I said I thought Cranky shouldn't go? And the part where I said that those of us who land TT jobs have won the lottery? And the part where I said that even if you're insanely lucky, academia might still wreck your life? I'm not sure where the optimism is here. And sweetie, I don't have an Ivy-league degree, though I beat out a whole lotta people who do to get my jobs. Why? Because there's no single path to a job, most people will never get one, luck plays an enormous role in who does, and often those who seem to have the most promise end up in debt and unemployed on the other side. I've never yet recommended that anyone go to grad school, especially in the humanities, and to folks who come to me insisting that they're going anyway, I say: "Sit down. It's time for the Talk. Let me explain how the academic job market works, how the odds are overwhelmingly against you, and how much rice-and-beans awaits *even* if you're one of the ridiculously lucky ones who gets a job eventually." What I won't say is that noone EVER beats the odds, because that's simply untrue.
ReplyDelete@Ovreductd: I think that might have been Frod, but the point still holds (and the odds of personal damage of some sort are not too different; after all, not everybody who takes drugs ends up in a mess, either, but a significant enough proportion do to suggest extreme caution in weighing potential benefits vs. risks).
ReplyDeleteYour odds of getting an academic job after completing a PhD are heavily correlated to what field the PhD is in. Many of the comments about this option have been negative. I encourage you to look at employment prospects based on the field of your desired PhD.
ReplyDeleteAnother option is to get a masters degree in your preferred field. You can do this part-time, most likely. Many schools will allow you to teach if you have a master's.