So I've been having a hard time explaining tenure to my otherwise sweet and wonderful husband. Not what it is - he's plenty smart, probably smarter than I am - more like it's value in professorland.
See, the hubs is from [random midwest state; RMS] and would like to return there in a few years when we have kids. I don't disagree with him; I actually love [RMS] and even more amazingly, think his family is wonderful! But as you and I know, one can't just expect to get a job in the state you wish on any given year; they may or may not have an opening or funding and you just have to pounce on those things when and if they open.
But more difficult to explain is this tenure thing. I'm about two years away from tenure review at my current institution, but he keeps talking about going to [RMS] in maybe 5 years (after I've gotten tenure), as though it's no big deal to drop a tenured position and pick up where I left off at some new school (or just start again). I try to tell him that in some ways, it's even harder to leave after tenure, because hiring committees are preternaturally wary of you ("why on Earth would you leave a tenured position?"). I try to tell him that it's kind of insane to leave a tenured position unless you're so well-published and desirable that Universities are willing to give you tenure at their school just to get you (I'm trying, believe me, but I doubt this'll be me). I try to tell him that I'll go insane leaving tenure and restarting the tenure clock, because I'll be good and sick of jumping through the hoops by then, and won't want to do it again, even if they give me a few years off for good behavior. But it's no use.
I think it's partly because I'm a woman. I'll bet even some of you were thinking, "you can do it! Just move! You're going to have kids and then you can work part-time at some community college!" Well, shame on you if you thought that. I worked as hard for my PhD as any dude, and I don't plan on chucking a tenured professorship just because I'm a chick. You would't, right?
So what I'm looking for is validation that yes, it's sort of crazy to think about moving after tenure. If we want to go to RMS, we should do it in the next few years (in which case, I'm still giving up much of the work I did to get to tenure at the school I'm at, but at least it's not quite as bad). I'm also looking for ways to explain that tenure is the "coin of the realm," so to speak, to someone who - while quite intelligent - just isn't part of the academic world. I might even have him read this post and the responses, if you guys remember to be nice. ; ) Sometimes, hearing the same thing from other sources is what a person needs; me saying this over and over might not be convincing - but if other professors he doesn't know say it, too, it might be.
Unless there's something I don't know, in which case, tell me please. =)
Thank you thank you thank you.
Callie
OK, I'll wade in. You are 100% correct about your mobility decreasing after tenure. It isn't so much the committees are wary of you, but rather that almost all searches are conducted at the assisant proffie level. So once you have tenure, you are ineligible for 90% of the job openings in academia. So, if you are going to move to another TT job, the time to do it is before tenure.
ReplyDeleteBut that still leaves you with the problem of there being a job opening of any kind in your field in RMS. And given that so many searches are being canceled or tabled right now because of the economy, I can only say that I'm very sorry about your situation.
Of course lightning can strike. I moved from one TT job on the opposite coast to one in the exact same city as Mrs Archie's TT job in my second year of trying. But waiting for that is kind of like waiting to win the lottery. It can happen, but you wouldn't want to bet your life, or your marriage on it.
My message to Mr Quip, if you do have him read these, is that getting tenure is like making partner in a law firm (I'm presuming he's in some kind of corporate job), but with less mobility. So asking you to give up tenure in five years to go adjunct in RMS, if you can even get that, would be like asking him to give up being a partner in a firm to go work at McDonald's, or as a pro-bono do gooder in a legal aid clinic. Sure, he could ask, but he'd have to be a giant weasel to expect you to say yes.
Of course it's crazy to think you can just move where you like after tenure. It's also crazy to marry someone that doesn't understand this. But love overlooks such things.
ReplyDeleteIf you want advice on how to handle this, I will give you some. Don't borrow trouble. When husband says he's thinking that you'll move back to RMS in five years, smile and say "That would be great! We can start looking at the job list then for positions..."
That ends the communication about this whole mess for, oh, five years. Repeat as necessary when he brings it up. Don't warn him about the fact that it's extremely unlikely you'll find something. Just promise to look. You have no problem looking, so...
Then, when that time comes, when he says he'd like to move, say, "well, let's look at the jobs available and the job list!"
Do it. With him by your side. Ask him about living in XY and Z. Is he wedded to a city? There might be no jobs in that city so you won't even be able to apply at all. If he's determined to live X miles away from home, you cast your net exactly that wide. Apply to whatever jobs you can. It's not likely you'll get any of them, but you need not belabor this with him.
Then, when/if you don't get any of them, you can't say you didn't try. You repeat this, year after year, until your husband gives up on it, or until he insists you quit your job and end your career so he can move back near mommy and daddy.
In which case, there is where the unborrowed trouble is hiding, and you will have to face that when it happens, and make your decision.
In marriage a lot of times the partner just wants some verification that the other person considers his/her needs, and sees them as valid. If your husband sees you're not brushing off his concerns, that you understand where he's coming from, he might find it easier to accept that through no fault of your own, you cannot meet them. He himself will then have to decide whether you are worth more to him than living in his hometown.
"I'll bet even some of you were thinking..."
ReplyDeleteShame on you. I didn't even start to think that. My thoughts were much more along the lines of "Are you crazy? Just getting the first TT job was hard enough, let along a second one, let alone a second one with tenure. Sorry, hubby, you're stuck."
On the other hand, I've been hearing from senior colleagues that mobility is becoming more common now, even in the academic sector. Maybe it's not as bad as we think.
When I was working my first adjunct job, the college president of said institution was a total nut job. We were regularly on the news because of his antics. Faculty in my department desperately wanted to leave, but they were all tenured. With the exception of one who was able to bolt to administration elsewhere and one who retired, they all ended up stuck because no place wanted to take a chance on someone who'd been tenured elsewhere. They would get calls and letters with statements like "We really do want to fill this as an entry level position," and even protests that they'd be willing to take a salary cut to move fell on deaf ears. And this was when positions were much more plentiful than they are now!
ReplyDeleteI understand your spouse's impulse. My spouse and I are both from RMS and wish we could return. But given my field, we had to go where we could find a job, and since he did the PWT degree for me first, my job came first. He now is also tenured in his field, so we are in RSS (Random Southern State) for the long haul. The place we live has its charm, but the culture is very different and we will never be regarded as really part of it. But if you get to work as a tenured professor in the field you trained for, you are very lucky indeed given the current climate. I try not to forget that on bad days.
You might move, you might not. You're in a tough tough situation faced by many before you, though, so it's good to turn for help. If we're adding anecdata I can say that I (male) am the career follower; where she gets a job is where we go. At the same time, I have a set of friends that just decided recently that their geographical aspirations were different (deal-breaker!), and they just split up.
ReplyDeleteI think it's partly because I'm a woman.
ReplyDeleteIf by "it" you mean "hubby's inability to understand the value of tenure," no, I don't think it's because you're a woman. If your husband was gay and having this conversation with his boyfriend, it'd probably go down about the same. Hubby doesn't sound like a sexist.
Stella's advice seem very sound.
I like Stella's advice too, but would modify it somewhat. Start looking for work in RMS right now.
ReplyDeleteIt's absolutely true that most hirings are entry-level and that the more senior you are the fewer job openings there are. (Seniors cost more money, and universities and colleges just don't want to spend money anymore.)
How much mobility you have seems to depend somewhat on your field. If you are not in one of those more mobile fields - generally, the fields in which there are also openings in industry, i.e. applied sciences, business, etc - then your chances of nailing a senior (i.e. tenured) position anywhere are low, and were low even before the crash a couple of years back. They are worse now. If you're in the humanities or social sciences or like that your chances of moving post-tenure are near zero.
So I would tell him that if he wants to move back to RMS, you need to start looking for jobs NOW, and he needs to be prepared to move NOW - that is, in the next two -three years, BEFORE you get tenure. You need to be applying for everything in sight right this instant. Because once you get tenure your ability to move will be drastically reduced - at least if you were planning to remain employed in an academic institution. Five years from now may suit his career clock but it will be damn near impossible on yours, unless his plans include you not having an income anymore. (Which you might not consider acceptable fallout.)
So, if he - and you - really want to move back to RMS, don't wait; start applying now. Really. The good news is that while there aren't that many jobs, if you have a tenure-track job you are in an excellent position to get another one; you have a track record, they won't have to teach you how to teach, and they already know that somebody else thought you good enough to hire. RIGHT NOW you are a very good prospect for any hiring committee.
Whether you conceal your job-hunting activities from your current institution I leave to you. If they are nice people you can explain to the chair that you understand that your chances of getting tenure increase if you can show them job offers from other institutions, so you're getting an early start on that process.
But once you've got tenure, expect to be there for the long haul, unless you're willing to adjunct or work at McD's in order to live in RMS.
If moving right this instant is unacceptable to your husband then you can move to Stella's advice - tell him that you will be very happy to start looking for work in RMS in five years, after you have tenure, but he needs to be prepared to accept, in that case, that your chances of finding work in RMS are very slim, and that the consequences of waiting may include:
- not moving at all
- moving but you not having a job anymore
- you getting a non-academic job that is acceptable to you
- you having a part-time adjunct position at low pay somewhere that makes you cry every morning when you have to go to work and think what you gave up to be there
- him moving alone, and you commuting to RMS on long weekends and between terms.
You need to discuss these potential outcomes. Are any of them acceptable? If yes, then sure, wait five years before you start to look.
"I think it's partly because I'm a woman."
ReplyDeleteIf you are referring to the having babies part and having to give up part of your career part, you're right. Men can't do that; men in your position have their partners get pregnant while fulfilling their duties.
So basically, you're facing the typical career woman conundrum. Have kids? Quit and move? Or stay put and be successful?
Or: third option? If you get tenure in two years' time, and work at it for ten years, you could side-step into a nonteaching academic position, like Dean or Provost, then skip to an admin position in RMS.
What? Then it's too late to have kids?? Oh. You're so screwed.
I think we all have to be honest here: until men can start having babies, women really have to choose between family and full career. It's impossible to take 2 or 3 years off (or reduced) for those vital early baby years.
Maybe you could start the pregnancies at your current job. Maybe. But if you want to be a part of your kids' lives, you can't be doing tenure track and pick-up-and-move and conferences.
Am I anti-family? No! Once upon a time I wanted a family. But I realized at some point that I wanted to teach more and boom, the option of a family just went out the door. Most of us can't do both right now without major, major sacrifices.
I don't think most people reading your post assume that as a lady you need to be doing lady things and stay in the kitchen. But I do think we all understand that when women become mothers, they no longer have the equal footing as men -- even fathers. Whether based on personal needs or social pressures, mothers end up losing out, both by missing child events AND tenured opportunities.
Sorry Callie.
I'm in a similar position, except I'm already tenured, and the hubs will graduate from grad school in the spring with a marketable advanced degree. My ideal scenario involves him finding work around here, so that I can keep my beloved SLAC job, even though I make peanuts. If we have to move, it would be because he's taking a prestigious job making twice what I do. Even so, I'm reluctant to accept the fact that I'd have to give up everything I worked for up to this point. I keep telling myself that he deserves job fulfillment, too, and that as a supportive spouse, I should give him a chance to succeed as I was. But then I think about what that change would be like for me, and it makes me sick to contemplate. So, Callie, I feel for you, and I appreciate everyone's comments; they've helped me start to accept what my situation really is, like it or not...
ReplyDeleteSigh. Maybe becoming a freelance knitter wouldn't be so bad...right?!
Well, Callie, I feel you on this one. I can tell you that I *did* move, pre-tenure, back to RMS because Mr. Cass and his family are here. I wake up every *single* day regretting it. His family, whom I used to think were great, turned out to have been backstabbing me viciously for our entire relationship; the job is just great in some ways, but it's a compromise, not a love-affair; and my marriage has taken a helluva beating. Now that we're socked in, Mr. Cass doesn't want to move, and it's a reasonable request. This might all have been true anywhere I could have ended up, but it wouldn't have been the source of the unhealthy resentment I'm still trying to work through. And Mr. Cass is a loving and supportive guy who genuinely wants the best for me and for our marriage.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right that this issue is gendered; you won't be getting the wide social recognition and support for prioritizing your career that men do, and people won't be taking Mr. Quip aside on a regular basis and explaining to him that he'll be defeminating you if he doesn't support, at the cost of his own career, whatever career goals you might have.
I'd say that, for the sake of your marriage, you should do your best to move pre-tenure to an equally good or better position in RMS. Stella's right: show him the jobs each year and explain what it would mean to go there, and how many applicants you're likely to be competing with. Don't take a job you think you don't want, and don't give up a tenured or tenure-track job without something equally good lined up. Mr. Quip will end up married to a woman he doesn't know, and you'll end up *being* a woman you don't know. If Mr. Quip was an academic, you'd have a different set of decisions to make, but it sounds like his desire to move is being driven by personal, rather than professional considerations. Good luck!
@Academic Monkey (and anyone else thinking about kids/academia):
ReplyDeleteIt's not impossible to take 2 or 3 years off or reduced. But it's much better if you have tenure first. This applies to the OP in that if she moves, she will lose a couple of years on the tenure clock, at the very least.
I had my baby post-tenure. I was lucky in that she was born at the end of a semester, and then I had time in enough to take off an entire semester for maternity leave. So, I spent eight months with my baby. When I went back to work, and since, I have structured my work week so that I can be home most days of the week. My husband, also an academic, structured his work week to be working the days I wasn't. But even if he hadn't, I could have been home all but two days a week.
I will say that I checked out at work a bit after having my baby. Because she was my first priority, and still is. So I didn't do as much. I got comfortable with doing just enough for awhile, and I really have only gotten back to full engagement the past couple of years, since she's been ft in school.
It can be done, without ignoring the kids or work. But pre-tenure the stress is terrible. Post-tenure, it's endurable. You just let some things slide.
Several other female friends have done exactly the same thing.
@ Stella - I have two children, and had them both post-tenure, and it's doable. But late fertility runs in my family; I had them at 40 and 42, and there was of course every reason to think that I wasn't going to be able to have babies at all at that age. There is a downside to waiting until you have tenure.
ReplyDeletePre-tenure increases your chances of actually having children, but is harder career-wise. Well, post-tenure affects your publication rate too, but I find that I really don't give a rat's ass; the obsession with getting another paper out stat is gone. But I have tenure, so I can think that way, and publish from time to time on those subjects I think are really worth discussion.
(Not that I consciously waited until I had tenure - I just didn't meet my husband until I was 38).
ReplyDeleteMerely Academic:
ReplyDeleteAre you sure you're not me? Sounds like exactly what happened to me. I was lucky to have my daughter late--but then couldn't have the second I wanted. But I met my husband late, too, so it's not like I would have had a chance before then.
I find I also don't give a rat's ass--I'm conferencing and publishing on what I find interesting.
Having babies late is not a sure thing, but I think I am a better mom for being settled financially and career-wise.
For the record, Callie didn't ask for advice on when to have kids, not that anybody has given her that advice.
ReplyDelete(By the way, the tenure getting process for pregnant ladies is not going to get any better as long as ladies keep telling their younger colleagues to wait, which I've had women tell me directly and without me asking them for advice. And guess what, I didn't listen. Because it's not irrelevant to a job until the mother in question forces it to be irrelevant to her job, whether her colleagues are ready for the twenty-first century or not. Who have I had the most support from in my professional life regarding the little buggers? MALE colleagues. MEN. Go figure. Call me a remnant from the 1980s but I want it all, and I think the flexible work hours of academia ain't going to hurt. Then of course, my BFF is a doctor, and she has proven to me how much a schedule can REALLY AND TRULY suck for having kids. Frankly, telling women to wait until their later thirties to start having kids when they REALLY want kids, like yesterday, is cruel, unnecessary, and possibly medically irresponsible. Telling them to "be realistic" doesn't help anyone either. My thought is that if a woman can financially and emotionally support them, she should have them, and sort out everything else as she goes, just like everyone else does outside of academia. That we even have these conversations in academia is evidence of how bizarrely stuck in the dark ages we are [also applies to lawyers seeking partner and medical residents, I suppose, but even then it's more a question of "how are we going to do this?", not "You're seriously going to try. What's WRONG with you?".)
But yes, I think gender does matter in this case. Especially if he is getting the constant whine from home about moving back to RMS. Explaining acadamia to your spouse is one thing. Explaining it to your in-laws in next to impossible. Especially if your in-laws treat your job like a hobby.
Stella gave excellent advice. As did Merely Academic. Good luck, Callie
I'm with Merely, I think, as well as Stella. Apply now; you can always turn down jobs (and perhaps use them for retention offers so you are making more money), but you can't accept jobs you have not applied for.
ReplyDeleteOn kids (not that you asked, but it's interesting to see the stories here): I met my partner late (at 37) and had my kid several years after tenure, at 39. I never recommend waiting that long to grads and junior colleagues, because it's a total crapshoot. If you're a lesbian, though, they don't make you try for a year before you qualify for assisted reprotech.
Callie, I hope it all works out.
Others above have said much what I understand to be true: moving post-tenure is difficult and regarded as very peculiar in the academy.
ReplyDeleteI also think that walking Spouse through the process ('here are the jobs I'm qualified for and yes I can be overqualified...') is a wise idea.
Atom Smasher and I are at present involved in a kind of horrible game of emotional chicken in which we pursue our careers without talking about it with each other and hope for the best. Shit will hit the fan (atoms will smash) roughly in March of next year. Oye.
It IS crazy to move away from a tenured position if the school is even marginally decent. My question, though, is why doesn't Non-Academic Mr. Callie take your word for that??? Does he think he knows better? If he doesn't, does he just not give a shit about screwing with your career? Or, if he does think he knows better... is he just under some sort of weird delusion about his own epistemic powers?
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone outside of the academy really understands the job situation. There are colleges everywhere, right? So why not just apply to one of those? For some people as well, location trumps career. They will put up with a lesser job to be where they want. Academics can also be that way. We've all known people that won't apply to this or that college because they wouldn't consider taking a job in that part of the country, etc.
ReplyDeleteI've moved away from tenure twice, once years ago that didn't hurt me, and once six years ago that was a strain (because I had to CONVINCE a school I would take an asst position.)
ReplyDeleteI'm a trailing spouse, and old now, too, but I love teaching, have a decent career behind me, and about 10-12 years before retirement. I cannot BUY a job interview anywhere. I can't convince ANYONE now that I'm a reasonable candidate. I've published six books, all sort of middling, well except for one, I guess. I have taught at a top R1 in California. I have credentials that overqualify me for jobs I'd LOVE to take. I'm willing to give up rank, all of that. I'm not a tenure-monger. I'd work on a contract. I just want to teach.
But with my record, and with my age, having had tenure makes me unhirable - or at least unhirable in the eyes of folks on the modern search committee.
Callie's situation is different, of course, but the "stink" of tenure is strong, and it seems to me that committees who see someone SO close to tenure, or already there, can't see beyond the idea that you might have OTHER reasons for wanting to move to RMS or wherever. (Or in my case, go where my spouse had better opportunities.)
re: when to have children, which Cleo is right about, Callie didn't ask - my actual (totally unasked) advice is that you should have children when you want to have children, and bugger all the rest. If I'd been in a stable relationship sooner I would have done it sooner. I was very much assisted by a colleague, an older woman, who didn't have the slightest interest in having children herself. But her advice to me was "If I wanted to have children, I wouldn't put it off to find a cure for cancer." Really stuck in my mind.
ReplyDeleteI am not at all surprised that you find your male colleagues more helpful than your female colleagues on the subject of children. Why this might be is a whole other post. But I've certainly seen it too.
re: having "other reasons" to want to move, if you've got tenure - at least, Callie, you could be upfront about that. "I need this job because my husband wants to move back here." Search committees love geographic reasons involving family.
@Stella - I've frequently had the impression that you're me! Now I'm wondering if I'm getting up at 2 a.m. and posting things I don't remember, from another account ... (cue twilight zone music ...)
ReplyDeleteHa! You guys have all been mondo helpful in making me feel less like an insane person and more like a person with a reasonably complicated problem on her hands. Unfortunately, in regards to continuing this discussion and/or showing your responses to "Mr. Quip" (that was a good one, Cass!), he gots himself a really yucky cold and with the snot faucet running and the sore throat raging, I think it would be kicking a man while he's down to hit him with these arguments at the moment. But next time it comes up, I'll feel more confident talking about this stuff with him. Thank you!
ReplyDeletePS - re: children, I'm all for having them in a few years. I'm still young, yet, and would like to have them close to 30-ish. I ought to be relatively settled by then, and/or have tenure where I'm at! Thanks for all the thoughts! ; )
My only comment re: timing the reproductive thing is that I wouldn't even consider getting pregnant until you've settled this move thing.
ReplyDeleteBecause if you end up back in RMS and miserable, and the marriage falls apart, it's a lot more complicated.
And sorry, if the strongest reasons he can give for the move are that he likes RMS and his parents live there, I'd dig in my heels where you are...