I have been reading CM since the beginning (and RYS before that). Yet, there is one thing that separates me from the rest of the readership: I'm an undergrad
.Currently, I'm in my junior year and contemplating going down the PhD track in my engineering related undergraduate field. I've been doing everything I'm supposed to do to prepare myself to get into a good program. I've been working in a lab for a while now and I genuinely enjoy it. I think I could see myself enjoying a career in research. I TA for a lab section and I don't hate it (yet?). I think I might even make a non-shitty professor someday.
However, the more I think and read about it, the more I question going into academia. After I finish my BS, I know that I could get a decent engineering job, making decent engineering money. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it as much, but I'd have a hell of a lot of money (relative to what I have now) to blow on whatever. But, money isn't everything, right? My father always told me to find something I liked and then find a way to make money doing it. But, I'm even a little concerned about my ability to make money should I manage to get a PhD. According to the literature, there are just too many PhD candidates for how many tenure-track positions open up. Combine this with the fact that tenure may go to the wayside in favor of adjunct positions someday down the road, and well, I'm just a little nervous about putting my eggs in the academic basket. (Not to mention that a PhD is probably overqualified for almost all entry level job positions.)
Perhaps I am simply young and naive, but with all that said, I'm still strongly considering applying for a PhD program next fall. I know that I will have to find an answer to this question for myself, but I would greatly appreciate your honest opinion.
Q: Knowing what you know now, would you consider it advisable for me to embark on such a path? Do you think that your own decision to join the ranks of the academy was worth it?
A: Post replies below.
Join the Taliban instead; it's more exciting, better chances of advancement, they actually believe in what they are doing.
ReplyDeleteI'm in a humanities-related field, so I lack deep insight into the world of engineering. However, from what I've seen at a few universities, there's a decent job market for engineering profs, and their pay rate, although not astronomical, is pretty good. Don't rule out grad school.
ReplyDeleteWho says you must be confined to academia? You can do other things with an engineering Ph.D., and be reasonably paid for it. If you solve the world’s energy problems, you might make a lot of money, if you’re not a naïve little nerd ill suited for life outside the lab. Seeing as you write well, I’ll assume you’re not one of those.
ReplyDeleteSee Peter Feibelman’s book, “A Ph.D. is Not Enough.” He’s a physicist who was burned in academia, and has since had a successful career at a national lab. He discusses extensively the downsides of academic careers for scientists: as he says, “My hope is that if more of you act rationally, the system will become rationalized.”
When you’re in your Ph.D. program, remember that during the first two years, you can stop with a masters. If you become an assistant professor, whether tenure track or not, and you don’t like it, in engineering you have other options. This is one reason engineering profs (and business profs) get paid more than other profs: universities don’t want them to get other jobs, working for real money.
If you do like being an assistant professor but want more money, you can supplement your income with engineering consulting work, all perfectly legally. In my field, astronomy, as well as in high-energy physics (and, I hear, English and many of the other humanities), one’s options are more limited, but I wouldn’t have traded my long struggle for anything. But of course I’d say that, since I now have tenure.
I'm in humanities, but my eng friends agree with Frod. They also tell me that, increasingly, engineers working in the private sector have PhDs, and that the kind of private-sector work you can do is better and more interesting if you have one. Go and have a talk with one of your eng proffies and see what they say. They can also give you advice about programs - some programs will give you a better shot at a research career than others.
ReplyDeleteI'm answering this as a social sciences PhD whose dad is a fairly successful and happy non-PhD engineer, so take that for what you wish.
ReplyDeleteMy advice would be to get a masters and then enter the work force for 3-5 years. See what you think of industry, and if you still feel inspired to go the tt route, go back to school and get a PhD. You may find that you love industry, or you may loathe it. Even if the latter happens, you'll be a better professor for it, and the real-world experience can't hurt.
No. It's not worth it.
ReplyDeleteThere is no mathematical sense in which earning a Ph.D., and especially an engineering Ph.D., is worth the time spent on the degree. Plenty of other places have gone through the details and been linked to here.
I am an engineer, working on my Ph.D. With slightly different choices in the last few years, I could be working at any number of locations for a salary easily calculated by adding another zero into what I make now.
However, if you enjoy the academic research and environment, then the path to a PhD can be rewarding by itself.
My recommendation, in a better economic era, would be to go out into your field now, with plans to come back later for a Master's. You lose less time taking a break between a BS and an MS than between an MS and a PhD (especially at the same school, most of my MS credits transferred to my PhD requirements). You might also be able to pick up an MS on the side, while employed, and have your employer pay for some of it (I did).
If the job prospects available right now are really shitty, Haphazard's suggestion above might be better. And an MS is, monetarily speaking, worth it in engineering.
You will probably be able to find gainful employment inside academia or in industry, or in both, and you may be able to switch (although that has complications I do not fully understand, yet).
In the end, you will need to find personal benefit from a PhD beyond any expected financial outcomes. If you are unsure, wait a bit. A few years between a BS and an MS will probably be good for you and your CV.
I'd say what I know of the various disciplines that an Engineering PhD is a LOT more useful and valuable than comparable degrees in the Humanities, say, which is my field. If Sam was an English major, I'd tell him to find a new bliss right now.
ReplyDeleteBut, the advice above is good. Talk to Engineering folks (academics and NOT) to get their advice.
The Ph.D. malaise on this page is fairly Humanities-centric.
As a science (but not engineering) Ph.D., I'd recommend you get the degree.
ReplyDeleteI ditched the academic route after my Ph.D. and am now happily working in the biotech industry (and adjuncting). If I didn't have the degree, I couldn't have gotten a job with nearly the responsibility and potential upward mobility that my job now has.
Also, does an opportunity to spend several years studying engineering, taking engineering classes, and working in an engineering lab appeal to you? I'll bet it does. If so, grad school is valuable in and of itself for the opportunity to learn more. And knowledge will help you no matter what career path you pick.
The monetary equation may not make sense, but as you've said, money isn't everything. If you like money more than engineering, you can always become an investment banker. That's what most of my Chemical Engineering friends did.
Science and eng PhDs are useful, but are not the route to more money over a lifetime, as neatly explained in other places.
ReplyDeleteYou asked what I thought of my OWN decision - the decision to take the PhD was absolutely the right one for me. I loved the chance to do research, to see if I could be a scientist. My answer would be the same whatever I was doing now, I'm pretty sure (I'm actually an academic), but then money and 'things' aren't that important to me beyond the level of a scruffy and slightly bohemian middle-class type life style, so the fact that I drive a 6 year old fuel-efficient 'town car' whilst my friend who did not do a PhD and works in industry in sciences has a brand new sports car makes no difference to how I feel about my choices, if that makes sense. So I'm with Ruby, absolutely. And since in the US system you can leave with an MS after a couple fo years, probably into a recovering economy, I can't see that you have much to lose.
I'd echo Froderick, but with one caveat: check the money. If you get into a PhD program with full tuition and minimal TA load to get buy, then it's a good option. But do not put yourself in greater debt getting through the PhD.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I might disagree with Frod about the Masters. People with M.Sc.s tend to look like failed academics, and so it might actually be harder to find a job with it than without it, depending on the specific field and discipline.
Engineering faculty make good money compared to other departments but less than in the private sector. You can consult, as Froderick mentioned, to augment your salary and also keep your skills up to date.
ReplyDeleteI've been told that an MS may be preferrable to PhD in some engineering disciplines if you want to enter the private sector. Check that out by talking with faculty in that area.
The economy is in the shitter so you might not have much of a choice. Our wise advice doesn't pay the light bill.
Yes, academia is being "right-sized" but it's affecting engineering and science less. People associate the word "useful" with those fields, deservedly so or not. Just because there aren't a lot of tenure-track jobs available doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of jobs for PhD engineers.
This is just a personal impression: I'm in Humanities but have chaired the orals for a few Engineering PhDs, and damn, they look like they're having a lot of fun over there. Especially in computer engineering. Everyone in the room is on fire, ideas are getting batted around, everyone is convinced that what they're doing is fascinating AND worth doing, I don't see anyone in the room who's just putting in the time and collecting the paycheck. I think it's worth any money to live in that kind of environment. Plus, they're getting paid perfectly decent money, and, as everyone has pointed out, in engineering, you've got lots of options.
ReplyDeleteIf you feel like that about your discipline, and you're surrounded by people who also feel like that, hell, go for it. You won't be sorry.
Listen to your dad.
ReplyDeleteYou should look into career development programs through the private sector or a national lab. You work for them for a while, then they send you to graduate school. The company/lab pays the university your tuition and you your private sector salary. In exchange, you commit to work for them for a few years post-degree. Lots of places have them, but here's an example from Sandia National Labs: http://www.sandia.gov/careers/fellowships.html#csmp
ReplyDeleteLiving on $75,000 per year + benefits + full freedom in choosing an adviser is much, much better than having to be a teaching assistant at $25,000 per year with no benefits.
The Geometer is correct. There are lots of government agencies and private companies that will give you full time pay for part-time work and full time school in an area of interest to THEM. That is a route to consider.
ReplyDeleteIn STEM fields you should not accept ANY offer which doesn't come will free tuition and a fellowship or assistantship. Period.
Back in the day when I worked for a government aerospace contractor there were lots of people with Ph.D.s. One 50 something guy had 2 Ph.D.s in science fields. In fact, in our group only two of the co-ops didn't have MS degrees. So there are non-academic places where you can get a job post-Ph.D.
The only thing I wish I had done differently was location. I wish I had picked a lower cost of living area so that I didn't have to work two jobs. I'd stay away from California, NYC, and the like.
I'm still young by academic standards so the jury's still out on whether or not it was worth it. But most days I'm happy and I'm reasonably well paid but not rollin' in the dough.
Just for the record, in humanities fields you should not accept ANY offer which doesn't come will free tuition and a fellowship or assistantship, either. Period.
ReplyDeleteSince you want to go into engineering, I assume you are interested in the application of sophisticated math. Another - very - lucrative field is economics, finance, financial engineering etc.
ReplyDeleteTry to get in the doctoral program of one of the top 25 schools (Assuming you are American, you will have some additional buoyancy as a minority candidate (i.e. US students are minority vs Chinese, Korean, Russian etc majority). A PhD from a lower ranked school is not worth much.
Pay is relatively good - starting salaries for econ profs are about 80-100K, business schools 20% higher and - quite different to engineering - you do not need you own lab, so no postdocing!
So, young Skywalker, let me invite you to the dark side...
My engineering compadres tell me that an engineering masters is not all that useful in industry. Their explanation is that mainline engineering masters programs are mostly aimed at converting you to a PhD student. There are some exceptions to this apparently, (e.g., industrial engineering). Joint engineering-business masters programs are considered quite useful in industry.
ReplyDeleteI know many Engineering PhD's who work in industry. Talk to as many engineering PhD's as you can find, both academic and non-academic. Good luck!
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate all of the advice that everyone has given me! It has put a lot of my worries at ease.
ReplyDeleteThank you all!