The previous post mentioned something about a student sleeping with the dean in return for preferential treatment. I believe that between .1% and 1% of the students at my school fuck at least one faculty member or administrator during any given year. Some years, I am absolutely certain that it is at least .1%, but I don't know how close to 1% it gets.
Q. What's the range at your school?
A. Provide evidence, dammit.
My god, if you're talking about grad school it's got to be a much higher percentage than that!
ReplyDeleteWell, I had a student who was a spouse of a faculty member, so presumably....
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, all I've heard are rumors of rumors. But I'm clueless about this sort of stuff, and nobody tells me any good gossip.
@Stella: Good point. If you're at a fancy school like Columbia where 70% of the students are grad students (or at a med school, where zero of the students are undergrads), then you'll be looking at a completely different range. I'm not at one of those schools. But it's an excellent point. Let's be sophisticated with our answers.
ReplyDeleteAh, student sex. It takes me back ...
ReplyDeleteto a pretty funny post I wrote a while back.
Hm, personal experience? As an undergrad, I knew of one professor sleeping with a student from my circle of friends (well, friends of friends too) about every other semester. In strict numbers, I know of 5 such events during 7 semesters (plus summers), all with different people.
ReplyDeleteAs a grad student, I know of 4 TAs sleeping with students and 2 professors sleeping with students (one prof slept with multiple grad students; the other prof ended up marrying an undergrad 30 years his junior).
In a moment of desperation when I was 19, I decided to try to sleep with one of my profs for an A. This decision lasted all of 20 minutes. And I got an A anyway. But it still hits me that -- my god -- I actually thought that was a real option once.
So honestly, I would guess that it is a lot higher than .1%.
Is this what weeping students mean when they say to me, "I'll do ANYTHING to pass this class!"?
ReplyDeleteWell, if there's a lice epidemic...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo give you an idea of the numbers involved:
ReplyDelete0.1% is the level at which I get useful information from student evaluations.
1% is the level at which I find students in my Intro-Astronomy-for-non-majors class who can do math as well as I could when I was in 9th grade.
I therefore estimate that profs sleeping with students are more common, because seemingly everyone has a friend-of-a-friend story about it. Sometimes, the evidence for it is undeniable. I once had a department head who’d impregnated and married a much-younger student in his previous department, and if that had been known in the new department, they wouldn't have hired him. When I was an undergrad, I knew another prof who married a much-younger student. And this is the physics department: imagine what they do over in the humanities!
But Bubba, you say you want -evidence-? About sex and power, two things about which we have our biggest hang-ups?
Say, Bubba, since I've seen you make at least one post claiming you'd been offered something from a student you shouldn't have, and also considering that just last week we had a post about that teacher in PA who got in trouble for posting the wrong things about students, since you want us to share the secrets of our souls, how about YOU go first? Come on! We're waiting! What, do I have to get Strelnikov to hold you down while I pummel it out of you? OK, YOU ASKED FOR IT!!!
BASH!!! CRASH!!! ARRRGH! SOCK! POW! OOOF! (Massive destruction.)
(That’s right, sex and violence on CM. It’s almost as good as a Tubes concert!)
@Compost: Yes, that is what they mean when they say that. Didn’t we have a post not long ago about a prof turning down a student who said this, only to have the offer repeated by the student’s mother? I thought that sort of thing only went on at the psychology department.
When I was in undergrad, three of my profs married former students (one of them actually married two!). This provided great advantages to said students since free tuition was one of the benefits for spouses. I didn't see very much of this going on in grad school, which is shocking for an English department, but I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that most of my professors were either older than dirt, feminist lesbians, or Catholic priests/nuns.
ReplyDeleteAt my current place of employment, most of the shenanigans seem to take place among colleagues or admins and the people they supervise. One notoriously awful person slept her way to her current position, one for which she is completely unqualified. Her supervisor was married, but the two of them took an awful lot of long lunches and closed door meetings. The next thing we knew, his wife had filed for divorce. No sooner was the ink dry than the two of them had married and she had a cushy, newly created admin position so that she would not report directly to him.
Many of us strongly suspect one proffie in our department of sleeping with students but have no direct evidence. All we know is that he has a very loyal following of female students who gush about he changed their lives despite the fact that he's well known for not following any department syllabi or assigning any relevant work. More than once, I've been approached by some sweet young thing with tears in her eyes and a wistful look on her face imploring me to tell her where Professor Alleged Lothario could be found.
My internet connection just ate my post, so here's the condensed (or at least telegraphic) version:
ReplyDeleteOne former grad TA/student relationship that I know of in undergrad (and it was mostly the student's idea). One lecherous poet-in-residence who probably wasn't very successful in sealing the deal.
In grad school: one rape of a new grad student by a professor after a welcome party (which the university responded to far too slowly), some odd pairings in the faculty parking lot (at least some of which probably resulted from cars in the shop rather than nights of passion), and some reported offers of the sort Compost describes (none reported as being accepted).
At my present uni: a significant number of the members of my department seem to be sleeping with other faculty members, but they're also married to those faculty members, so that's probably not what you're looking for. There are one or two marriages that began as student/teacher relationships, but with a considerable time lapse involved, so no real scandal there. Couples who met while in grad school together are far more common.
On the other hand, among local clergy affiliated with my denomination, I know of a half-dozen acknowledged cases of pastors committing adultery with parishioners (or, in one case, a pastoral intern) in the last 20 years, plus one case of verified (by a conviction and jail term) sex abuse by a youth director of one of his young-teenage charges. I'd guess that universities do about as well -- or badly -- as any other institution which brings together humans of varying ages, sexes, and degrees of power.
Many friends and colleagues married their professors, and my guess is for most of them there was hanky-panky going on waaaaaay before the wedding. Over the past twenty years, having taught in a couple of different places, I can name at least six professors that married their former students. Five profs were male, one female. One of the male profs was married and divorced his wife. These were all undergraduate students, but in two cases I know for a fact the romance didn't begin until the student had graduated.
ReplyDeleteIn grad school--Jeebus. A couple of my peers married their profs, one female prof, one male. Both marriages didn't last very long. Other profs were married to each other, but had met when the female was their grad student at a previous university. One of those marriages collapsed rather spectacularly.
Then there were the profs with "reputations" (all male), the profs that fell desperately in love with students, and vice-versa, etc. Now, then there's the prof-on-prof stuff, and there's plenty of that to go around as well.
I am indeed in the humanities, and in literature specifically. Talking about literature in a close environment is, well, sexy. At least seductive. People fall in love in seminar rooms, talking about La Vita Nuova.
Here is all I know. One prof who was in a long term relationship with another prof. At some point, one of them had been the other's grad student. I went on a job interview, ancient creepy prof bragged his wife was a former student. There were rumors an undergrad prof of mine had married a former student. Can't verify. Of the people I know? Nobody slept with a prof.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm in Canada, and we don't do any of that up here. And may I say that I'm shocked. Shocked!
ReplyDeleteThough a colleague of mine points out that the old rules for sexual harassment were unspoken but perfectly understood: everyone was allowed to do it once. And you married her, and she dropped out of the program and "typed your manuscripts", aka did half the research and wrote the books, for you for the rest of her life, her contribution being acknowledged in the dedication, "to my dear wife, without whom", indeed.
At the place where I did my MA it was rumored that you shouldn't do your thesis with Dr. Boener because you would end up pregnant. Sure enough, a year or so later, one of his grad students had his child.
ReplyDeleteAt the same school in another department Dr. Stiffy came back from a year abroad teaching gig with one of his new grad students in tow, now sharing his name.
At each school I've attended or worked, there has been a grad student-proffie pairing while I was there. That's 3/50 or 6%.
ReplyDeleteIn grad school, there was an assortment of grad students tutoring and preying on the young and dumb freshmen.
Currently, there's a young, foreign proffie who we suspect, though we don't have much evidence. Year after year, he has a devoted following of cute and smart students working in his lab, exclusively of the female variety. (The students, not the lab. The lab is pretty gender neutral.) That's not a big deal except that he has no funding. They work in his lab for free instead of working for others (me) who can pay them.
Jealous? Hell yes. I work my ass off to get a grant to hire students. Then a bunch go work for our own young Ricardo Montalban. Honestly, eye candy doesn't actually count for much. It's a distraction in the serious, objective world of scientific research. Besides, goggles and a lab coat don't do it for me.
Hmmm. Five. One undergrad and young assistant professor at a SLAC. Hilariously tawrdy to us undergrads (even the undergrad herself wondered what kind of loser would sleep with an undergrad). Another undergrad and an older prof who married her. Puzzling to us undergrads (why an old guy?). A young assistant professor and an undergrad at a SLAC: painfully lame to us assistant profs. Two colleagues who mess around with their grad students at an R1. To us colleagues, pathetic in one, enraging in the other who uses these relationships as the basis for either promoting a student or trying to block her progress.
ReplyDeleteI knew one guy in the math department at my undergrad institution who was famous for bedding his undergrad conquests in their dorm rooms (pretty lame, if you ask me). In my grad department there was one guy who was also a serial philanderer with the undergrads. He didn't get tenure, in large measure because of that particular habit--the department apparently assembled a large dossier of letters from undergrads who he had hit on. I may be naive, but in the various departments where I've worked, I only know of one instance, and it was one of those "he married the grad student" cases--but I've known of at least two such cases in other departments. I also know a woman who has been fired multiple times for sleeping with students as both a high school teacher and a college proffie.
ReplyDeleteMy sense is that it used to be more common, especially in the humanities, but not as much anymore. But that may just be wishful thinking/naivete on my part.
The analytical side of me would like to point out that the type of data we are using is likely to only provide a minimum estimate of the actual lovin’ going on.
ReplyDeleteWe have folks that actually got married, but that is going to be a very small subset of the sex occurring.
I also have numerous accounts from my male colleagues of offers that were made, but responsibly declined (and according to them, there are many of these). For a variety of reasons, I think they are less likely to brag about those offers they just could refuse.
@ Glabella - Yes, I've heard a story or two about a young coed in office hours talking about her grade and unbuttoning the top buttons on her shirt while speculating aloud about possible extra-curricular credit to save that B. Of course I only hear about this from profs who claim to have declined.
ReplyDeleteOne who told me this said he got up, opened the office door, sat back down, and suggested they continue the conversation as if her most recent remarks had never been uttered or she might be setting herself up for serious trouble.
I wonder if it has ever happened the other way around - a female student threatening to claim that Proffie groped her or harassed her unless he bumps her grade up a notch. I imagine that is also not all that uncommon.
@ Beaker - Goggles and lab coat would be fine with me. There are much higher hurdles in place to prevent that from becoming a serious temptation, however.
Now I'm left wondering if my decidedly sub-average appearance (a quality I always thought suited me well to academia) has really been a help -- by preventing unwelcome attention -- or, rather, a hindrance -- by limiting opportunities for unfair advancement. I suppose at least it's clear to everyone that I've come to whatever success I've had through legitimate means . . .
ReplyDelete@SC: I'm with you. Everybody who knows me realizes that I got to where I am by my wits alone.
ReplyDelete@SC -- Beware! My own hangdog appearance did nothing to protect me from the attempted sexual grade-grubbing of a young man whom one of my colleagues referred to as "a black Adonis." I mean, he was hot, but he was also not getting an A OR sex. At least from me.
ReplyDeleteI have a good one of these.
All of the following are from our department...
Professor Dick (no, that's really his first name) marries his wife, Suffering, in graduate school. Dick gets his first teaching job, divorces Suffering, and marries Star-Struck. Star-Struck gets a job in Dick's department along with Harry. Suddenly, Star-Struck is running around with Harry, and Harry divorces his wife who is a DEAN, as is Professor Dick.
At the same time, Professor Really Is A Lothario banged student Conniving Catherine but eventually married student Laureled Lolita and begat a series of children. Lolita ended up teaching at Flagship U along with the FIRST WIFE of Professor Dick.
This story, together with a couple of suspicious and rapidly hushed-up pregnancies, now means that when I go to professional conferences, people ask me if it's "really true what they have heard" about my school.
Gross.
My sole personal contribution to all of this was getting felt up by a visiting French professor in the coat closet at a welcome party AND sleeping with my high school English teacher. You could argue I got it all out of my system when I was younger.
@BlackDog
ReplyDeleteNow you can refer to your college as Humpshack University....
What I don't like in the grad student-professor trysts are the power dynamics and the chance for a pointless scandal, not to mention the skeeze factor.
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ReplyDeleteForgot to add, completely out of thread that I am very glad Mubarak has stepped down in Egypt; I don't like the military council that stepped in....such councils have a tendency to become juntas. If they hold to their word (elections in 6 months) we will see real change.
ReplyDeleteHmm, sleeping with the dean.... where do I sign up?
ReplyDeleteSeriously, at our place, closer to 0.1%. I have to have a meeting with an adjunct that students have complained about - he touches them too much in class and insisted that they all "friend" him on Facebook.
Even our gay proffies are happily married. Although I just hired a sleek young man to start next term, I'm sure the young ladies will swoon in his presence.
Oh the stories I could tell, but I will just tell my own. Professor Licky McDicky and I meet in grad school (we were both grad students). We marry. After a few years on the job market we land two jobs at an R1. Five years later McDicky is banging my grad student, Pigzilla the dog faced girl. We divorce and she proceeds to spend the next two years trying to destroy my reputation by telling students not take my classes, etc. But then she made a huge mistake, she posted my personal medical history on the site that shall not be named. My lawyer nailed them both to a cross. Now Professor McDicky and the child bride are considered significant liabilities by the university lawyers and they have been told one more "mistake" and McDicky will be asked to leave. I guess karma is a bitch. Oh and little Miss Thing, has yet to finish her degree because most people in my department will not touch her with a ten foot pole, including fellow grad students. Oh well.
ReplyDelete@Snarkygirl:
ReplyDeleteI love happy endings.
Quite!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to hear that Miss Entitled Child Bride From Hell doesn't expect that you will continue to advise her, at least.
@Froderick: I was being honest when I wrote about having sex with the student. However, it was not a violation of any school rules. It was all on the up and up. I introduced the student to the provost at a faculty party. I wasn't hiding anything.
ReplyDeleteNow, I do not want either you or Strelnikov to pummel me, but I don't know if I have any really juicy sex tales to tell. I'm not as fascinated with sex as I used to be. So much of it seems silly.
I very much enjoy reading comments such as Snarkygirl's because they make me laugh so hard. I get satisfaction out of knowing that her husband was so stupid and that Snarkygirl escaped such a prison of a marriage. Justice is sweet.
Anecdotes are great, but I was originally thirsty for incidence and prevalence data. I wish one of you social-science proffies could share that information.
@Bubba,
ReplyDeleteHey, don't worry about it: my post was not 100% serious, you know. Also: I think even the best social scientists are going to think that reliable data of this kind are going to be very difficult to find or measure. It makes me glad that what I study might be halfway across the Universe, but at least it's out in plain sight. Whenever I meet a justice of the peace (under favorable circumstances, of course), I ask how one copes when working a job in which -everybody- is -lying-.
I'm also bummed that none of you people apparently are Tubes fans! ;-)/2
@Froderick: You don't have to ask a JOP. Ask me. Most of the people working at my school are liars. I cope by drinking bourbon.
ReplyDeleteHumpshack U! OMG! So good! Almost as good as "Disaster at Sea" and "The Floating Mattress" and "The Love Boat" for Semester at Sea, which a colleague's institution recently acquired.
ReplyDeleteMy undergrad college was remarkably free of this, actually. The one notable exception was a pair of faculty members who were married to each other; it was widely rumoured that they had an open marriage in which affairs with students were considered okay. No proof of this ever surfaced. One of my classmates was fixated on the husband, and eventually received an academic honor for which she was manifestly unqualified and which was the husband's responsibility to award. The assumption was that either she was sleeping with him, or that she'd threatened him with a sexual harassment claim which he had reason to believe would be taken seriously due to previous relationships with students.
ReplyDeleteAt the school where I work now, my predecessor in my current job dated one of the undergraduate students who worked in our office. I heard about this from the student; he was in his mid-20s at the time, and my predecessor was around the same age, but she administered his financial aid as well as being his job supervisor, so it was doubly inappropriate.
(As an overweight hippie chick with glasses working at a school that trains students for an image-conscious profession, I myself have been entirely left alone by both students and faculty, for which I'm profoundly grateful. My more toothsome colleagues (male and female) in my field have told me horror stories of unwanted attentions from students, faculty and (shudder) parents as part of attempts to influence professional judgments.)