By Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY
Updated <1m ago
By John O'Boyle, AP
Update at 12:27 p.m. ET: Here's how the Associated Press describes the jury's findings:
The jury found Ravi not guilty on some subparts of some of the charges, but guilty of all 15 counts as a whole. The most serious charges against Ravi — bias intimidation based on sexual orientation, a hate crime — carry up to 10 years in prison each. Legal experts said the most Ravi would probably get all together at sentencing May 21 would be 10 years.
Update at 12:23 p.m. ET:The Courier-News, sorting through the complicated verdict, reports that jurors found Ravi guilty of invasion of privacy, bias intimidation, attempted invasion of privacy, tampering with physical evidence, hindering apprehension or prosecution, witness tampering and tampering with physical evidence.
Update at 12:20 p.m. ET: The bias intimidation conviction, in addition to the invastion of privacy, made the verdict "a clean sweep in favor of the prosecution," said Paul Callan, a legal analyst for CNN.
He predicted the impact will be felt nationwide. "This is really going to change, I think, the way people think about social media, particularly what young people think of as the norm as far as posting everything."
Update at 12:06 p.m. ET: Ravi could face 10 years in prison because of the conviction on some of the bias intimidation counts, CNN reports.
Ravi had been charged with four counts of bias intimidation as a hate crime, two counts of invasion of privacy, two counts of attempted invasion of privacy and six counts of witness tampering and hindering apprehension.
He was found not guilty on some of the bias intimidation counts, but guilty on others.
Update at 12:01 p.m. ET: Dharun Ravi, 20, shook his head slightly after the guilty verdicts were read for all 15 counts, including bias intimidation, a hate crime, and invasion of privacy.
Ravi could be sentenced to prison and could be deported to his native India, even though he has lived legally in the U.S. for years.
Ravi's lawyer had argued that the college freshman was not motivated by any malice toward gays — a necessary element to prove a hate crime — and that his actions were just those of an immature "kid."
Update at 11:38 a.m. ET:The (Newark) Star-Ledger reports that the jury, after 12 hours of deliberating over two-and-a-half days, will deliver its decision shortly.
Original posting: Indian-born Dharun Ravi was being tried on 15 criminal counts, including bias intimidation and invasion of privacy for allegedly setting up his webcam to watch his roommate kissing another man in the dorm room in September, 2010.
Prosecutors also charged that Ravi tweeted what he had seen and on a second occasion a few days later, invited others to watch via twitter.
The roommate, Tyler Clementi, committed suicide in September 2010, just days after the alleged spying.
A conviction on the most serious, bias intimidation, could lead to a 10-year prison sentence for Ravi. He also faces possible deportation to India.
There's no dispute that Ravi saw a snippet of live-streamed video of his roommate and another man.
At issue was whether Ravi violated Clementi's privacy and whether he did it out of bias against gays.
Ravi is stupid, stupid, stupid. Not just for what he did, but the fact that he rejected a whole bunch of plea bargain offers.
ReplyDeleteHe's not stupid. He's hateful. And the fact he rejected the plea offers indicates he still thought what he did was acceptable. I don't think Ravi thought he'd get punished for "just" spying on his gay roommate and posting some vaguely homophobic comments on Twitter - after all, generally people get away with this kind of harassment all the time.
DeleteNo truly happy ending was possible on this one, but I'm glad that some measure of justice has been served.
ReplyDeleteThis is one case where I'm not sorry to hear that deportation is an option, though that leaves me feeling sorry for the people who may have to deal with Ravi in India. Maybe he *is* just immature, in which case 10 years in jail *may* help (and may not), but I fear that his "mean streak" (sociopathy?) may run considerably deeper than that. Only time will tell.
This is sad. What would have been the punishment if this had been a heterosexual sex video? It may not have even been prosecuted. Ravi is being excessively punished. As an armchair psychologist, I have to guess that Tyler was reacting to society's, his friends' and family's view of him being gay rather than the posting of the sex tape itself. Since we can't punish society for their views, let's put this guy in jail for a long time. That's not a good system of justice.
ReplyDeleteBen, I agree he's being excessively punished, but it's because he didn't take any one of the numerous deals he was offered, which started off being really light.
DeleteBazelon has a good discussion of the case here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/02/dharun_ravi_the_rutgers_student_who_spied_on_tyler_clementi_should_accept_the_plea_deal_from_new_jersey_authorities_.html
And there is something reckless about this logic -- if we applied it to acts of racial violence, it would seem wrong to shrug our shoulders to "oh, society, always being racist like that." This guy may have been raised to think taunting queer folks for being queer was the right thing to do, but it wasn't the right thing to do.
DeleteAlthough 10 years is fucking ridiculous and the US needs to calm the fuck down when it comes to these ridiculous prison terms. Give the guy a few months in jail to think things over and let him back out.
Seriously? You don't think that Ravi's actions had anything to do with Tyler Clemente's suicide? If you acknowledge that there is a social problem with homophobia*, then you really should be able to make the connection to why Ravi's actions could have been the last straw and the final factor towards pushing Tyler to kill himself.
DeleteYou're right that they probably wouldn't have punished the broadcast of a heterosexual incident so harshly. Mostly, because when that's happened before, the male participant gets kudos and our attitude toward female sexuality declares the woman a "slut" and says she got what she deserved.
Ravi isn't being harshly punished, there's finally being an appropriate response for a hideous crime.
*And if you were even in the least familiar with the backstory here, you'd know Tyler's family was supportive of him and accepted his orientation.
Legally, they don't. That's different to whether people think they do.
DeleteSorry I've been away from the comments having a good time.
Delete@AM, whether society at this moment thinks it's right to taught gays is not the issue. Legal decisions that determine a person's fate for ten years need to be made on more solid ground.
@Barb, I'm not that familiar with the backstory. If his family is comfortable with his sexual orientation, then there is even less support for this type of punishment.
Barb, what crimes deserve a 10 year prison sentence? He video taped a person having sex and broadcasted it. Consider that against armed robbery, murder, rape, money laundering and other crimes.
The goal of justice is not to finally send a message to everybody that something which used to acceptable is no longer acceptable. The goal of justice is judge the defendant and accuser fairly and impartially.
I would like to clarify that while I am hopelessly sympathetic to the Tyler Clementi side of things, I also agree that ten years is a stiff crime. Ravi could spend 5 poignant months in jail that would send a strong message AND provide a lifelong lesson about his actions. Ten years, on the other hand, will destroy his life and transform him by the time he comes out.
DeleteAs usual, the American justice system has no sense of nuance.
@Beaker - those other crimes deserve longer sentences, too...or, at least, to have the statutory sentences actually *imposed.* But far too often people are willing to use things like "boys will be boys" and "it was just a college prank" as excuses for not following through.
DeleteYour focus on Ravi is the problem here. Think about Clementi, the victim. From his point of view, Ravi filmed him having sex and outed him (Clementi) to an entire group of strangers. Being outed is something that can have serious and life-threatening implications. We don't *know* what the potential damage from the video could have been, because Clementi took his own life. But other people in his situation have faced serious harassment and assault. Even murder.
Ravi wasn't charged with any of those possible outcomes. He was charged with invasion of privacy. Please stop trying to defend his actions.
I don't know any teenagers who don't hate somebody. Let's throw them all in jail.
ReplyDeleteYou really don't get it, do you?
DeleteI agree with WhatLadder. What Ravi did was *not* negligible, regular-old-teenager hatred, and there are plenty of teenagers and young adults for whom one episode of harrassment condenses a whole lifetime of misery and sends them over the edge, making that episode particularly heinous. The movie *Bully,* coming out this weekend in NY, makes horrifyingly clear how homophobic bullying can be literally lethal.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, a plea bargain made much sense -- Ravi is young, and I can't see how 10 years in prison is going to make him less homophobic or a more productive member of society. If he had admitted fault and taken the offer of a lesser sentence, I think justice would have been served. But he was too arrogant, too stupid, or too badly advised to do so, and that is also a tragedy. Let me add, though, that it is not a tragedy comparable with the loss of Tyler Clementi's life.
If one illegal act, such as posting a private picture or video, is just the latest in a series of events that Tyler suffered, then Ravi is being punished for what he and everybody else did.
DeleteAnother reason for not taking a plea bargain is that he thought he was innocent.
How could he think he was innocent? He not only spied on the guy and tweeted about it, he invited people to attend an online spying party. The only way he could think he was innocent is if he is a giant jerk.
DeleteHe was guilty of invasion of privacy, which is what he was charged with. You seem to be suggesting Ravi was charged with causing Clementi's death, but he wasn't.
Good point. He did commit invasion of privacy, which is a crime. He probably deleted some computer files or tweets after he found out he was in trouble, which is tampering with evidence.
DeleteHe was not charged with Tyler's death but he was prosecuted as if he was. Do you think he would have received the same punishment if Tyler had not committed suicide?
How was it prosecuted as if Ravi was charged with Clementi's death? The suicide wasn't even allowed in evidence.
DeleteYou're joking right? If not, let me assure you that there isn't a single awake and reasonably aware person in the NY/NJ region who didn't know that Tyler committed suicide.
DeleteYou're joking right? If not, let me assure you that there isn't a single awake and reasonably aware person in the NY/NJ region who didn't know that Tyler committed suicide.
DeleteKari, not sure what your point is.
DeleteBarb, I would bet kari's point is that regardless of what the judge's instructions were, the jury knew the whole story. and I agree with her.
DeleteJuries are told to disregard aspects of the case that are not presented in the actual trial. Yes, it is an imperfect system, but that problem is not unique to this case. If you are arguing jury bias, I hope you are as willing to make that claim in cases where the victim is not gay.
DeleteAlso, in the vast majority of hate crime cases where the perpetrator is straight and the victim gay, the jury will find the defendant *not* guilty. The presence of homosexual behavior is often considered "provocation" by juries, and therefore the defendant's actions are excused. Please see "Victim Blame in a Hate Crime Motivated by Sexual Orientation," Journal of Homosexuality Volume 57:2
If I secretly record everything that happens in my own bedroom next month, and then share those recordings with other people, will I be prosecuted?
ReplyDeleteIf I secretly photograph two people kissing in the street outside my house, will I be prosecuted if I share those photos?
If I publish all those very personal love notes Compound Cal sent me last month, will I be prosecuted?
Yes to the first if there is anyone else involved who might have a reasonable expectation of privacy. If it's just you fapping, then you can try charge yourself, but that's just more fapping.
DeleteIf the people are outside on the street, you can share away. Vancouver kissing couple are your eg here.
If Cal had a reasonable expectation you weren't a blabbermouth, it's arguable, but since he knows you spill your guts on here all the time, unlikely.
Bubba, I think you'll find that photographing people in an "intimate situation" is actually one of the definitions of stalking, depending on how you play it. Obtaining two or more photographs of a stranger in the state of Florida, for instance, is considered criminal stalking.
DeleteSo check your local laws before clicking away.
If Tyler Clementi had been a universally-hated psychopathic asshole, then would everybody have been so intent on prosecuting the defendant?
ReplyDeleteProbably not, but that's also problematic.
DeleteIf Tyler Clemente had not been gay, would you be so invested in defending Ravi's actions?
Touche.
DeleteBarb, cut the bullshit. Would you be so gung ho about sending a guy to prison if his video subject wasn't gay? Some of us actually care about justice and not railroading people into the slammer. So, yes. I'd be concerned about Ravi if got 10 years for posting a sex tape of YouTube. I am concerned about millions of families destroyed by marijuana laws sending young men to prison too. I hope that provides enough fucking bona fides for you. Instead of demanding purity from Bubba, why don't you just argue your side of the issue?
DeleteIf you think Tyler's situation makes it likely that he wouldn't be prosecuted but you seem ok with the outcome, then I guess it's ok to destroy somebody's life for 10 years as long as .. what?
Your idea that a few comments on an anonymous blog constitutes being "invested" is pretty pathetic also.
Eesh, if I found out that someone had filmed me in my awkward first sexual experiences and broadcast them live, FUCK YES I hope this would be the reaction, because it's illegal and that is mortifying.
DeleteI'm not spreading bullshit here. Yes, I would be so "gung ho" about sending the guy to prison if the subject wan't gay. Because what was done was *wrong.* Tyler's orientation just adds another level of wrong.
DeleteNot sure what you think "my side of the issue" is. What Ravi did was wrong, he deserves to go to prison, he should get the sentence dictated by his offense. That's "my side."
Comments on a blog represent an investment of time. It's some demonstration of caring. If Bubba (and you) are just doing it for the "lulz," then it's *you* who are the pathetic ones. I'd like to think at least you felt this was an important issue before you devoted time to it.
I don't give a shit about your bona fides. What are you trying to prove?
OK Barb, fair enough. You're far more tough on videotaping sex than I am. Rereading, I see that you were responding to Bubba in kind with your question.
DeleteJust as a point - it's not that it was sex that was videotaped that I'm being tough on. It's the invasion of privacy. If Ravi had set up a camera observing Tyler studying and broadcast it for his friends to point and snicker at, I'd be making the same argument.
DeleteThe fact that Clementi was gay and killed himself leads to my emotional involvement and willingness to engage with this issue (both here and in a real-life activism sense.)
It's actually not the homophobia or the invasion of privacy that makes me react so viscerally to Ravi's actions (though those definitely bother me); it's his apparent belief that it was okay to use another human being he barely knew to amuse himself and his friends. The post-arrest actions WhatLadder mentions, which smack to me of arrogance, confirm that impression. I realize I may be guilty of reading too much into a few text/chat messages, and that some of the meanness was probably his way of dealing with his own discomfort with homosexuality, but something about those messages just gives me the creeps. But how much of that should be punishable by law I don't know, and I realize that 10 years in jail may not do much other than keep him off the streets for a while (and give him, his jailmates, or both a pretty hard time). And I sure wouldn't want somebody sentencing me on the basis that I "give them the creeps." And no, he wasn't responsible for Clementi's reaction, and it shouldn't have any bearing on his sentence, except perhaps as a demonstration that the same stupid act can have a variety of consequences (deciding to drive drunk can also have a variety of consequences, from none to clipping a mailbox to killing a vanful of people, perhaps even driven by someone who made a bad decision of his/her own, such as speeding or trying to catch a yellow light, but in that case, too, we're hard-pressed to endorse the same consequence for the damaged mailbox and the dead vanful of people. Manslaughter wasn't an appropriate charge in this case, since Ravi's actions were not in any way a direct cause of Clementi's death, but a sentence that says Ravi did have some responsibility to consider that his actions might have a range of effects on the human being he was essentially poking as a younger boy might poke a frog or insect strikes me as appropriate).
ReplyDeleteThe callousness of your response is appalling.
Delete"... I realize that 10 years in jail may not do much other than keep him off the streets..." As if that's the only downside to his sentence. How about ruin his life as a professional?
"And I sure wouldn't want somebody sentencing me on the basis that I 'give them the creeps.'" Well, guess what. You're supporting a judicial decision that supports that idea.
Also reminds me of this gay university president who jumped to her death a few years earlier. Perhaps all of her detractors who called her a "dyke" should be prosecuted.
ReplyDeleteRead the complaint. Read what was posted above from the trial report. Try to pay attention, at least. "jurors found Ravi guilty of invasion of privacy, bias intimidation, attempted invasion of privacy, tampering with physical evidence, hindering apprehension or prosecution, witness tampering and tampering with physical evidence."
DeleteYou are acting like he was found guilty of some vague bullying, rather than invasion of privacy and then trying to cover up what he did. He wasn't charged with anything like "trying to make a guy kill himself". That's why Clementi's suicide not was not allowed as evidence. It wasn't about the consequences, but about Ravi's illegal actions.
@Whatladder: I have too much caffeine in me now. My mind is doing funny things. Please take the Deal. Please please please. I just want to get drunk and have dreams about Tyler Clementi being resurrected so that everybody can live in peace and harmony.
DeleteGreat idea, Bubba. Really. People who practice hate and drive others to kill themselves through their horrible actions really should be prosecuted. Maybe if we start demonstrating that we actually take discrimination and hate seriously, and don't approve of it through our silent inaction, we can stop these things from happening.
DeleteOh, wait. You're being sarcastic. Sorry, I thought you might have been demonstrating some compassion.
I think we are talking past each other here. I am willing to believe that Ravi was guilty of invasion of privacy and other offenses. I would hope it goes without saying that he's an asshole of the first order. The sentence is what gives me enormous worry. Ten years is a long fucking time. You might say, "Well, that might be enough to for him to realize what he's done is wrong." True, but we don't sentence a lot of people to jail for 10 years. Even for stuff that everybody agrees is bad. Invasion of privacy is pretty small potatoes, in the big picture. Is 10 years now the minimum sentence?
Delete10 years was the minimum for the bias charges - the ones the prosecution were willing to drop if Ravi copped to the invasion of privacy and evidence and witness tampering. He made his own bed with his insistence that he didn't do anything wrong, in the face of the clear evidence that he DID think he had done something wrong because he ran around trying to cover it up. That's why I called him stupid.
DeleteI'd like to plea bargain. I know I'm guilty of commenting too much on this post, so I want to cut a deal. Here's the deal: I will disconnect from the intertubes and stop drinking caffeinated beverages. For the rest of today, I will drink only bourbon.
ReplyDeleteDeal or No Deal?
Only if I can join you.
DeleteI'm seeing a lot of blame the victim around here. I find that a tad disturbing. I wonder what Ryan Halligan, Meaghan Meier, and Phoebe Prince would say. I'm thinking that I need a break from this site. Deal? Yes, deal!
ReplyDeleteThe flip side of "blame-the-victim" is to punish the "culprit" even more if the "victim" is a sympathetic or tragic character--which is what seems to be happening here. Neither is acceptable.
DeleteP.S. DEAL!
DeleteAnd let's be real. If Clementi hadn't killed himself, the defendant would have never ended up on trial. At most, he would have gone through the Rutgers judicial "services" and gotten a slap on the wrist. If Clementi hadn't killed himself, there's no way this Ravi kid would be facing potentially decades in prison now. How is what he did any different than if he and his friend(s) had hid in the closet or under the bed (in his own bedroom) and watched Clementi kiss somebody?
ReplyDeleteYou're right, it probably would not have led to a trial, but not for the reasons you think. People attack us on a regular basis -- just today someone threw a rock at my car on the highway, for he believed he cut me off.
DeleteHad that rock hit my windshield, he would have been arrested. But it did no damage, so he won't be punished. Either way, what he did was a crime and I took down his info in case I needed it later.
Tyler might have been one of millions who suffered silently as people invaded his privacy and broke the law. But what his roommate was doing was illegal. Tyler's suicide was merely the way that this crime came to the attention of the police. Tyler could have attempted suicide and lived, also bringing the crime to the attention of police, and this guy would have still been convicted.
You seem really riled, Bubba, and it makes me wonder how you feel about gay people, affirmative action, and BET.
It's different because he publicized it and then promoted subsequent spying. I agree that if Clementi hadn't killed himself, it's likely Ravi wouldn't have been prosecuted, although he might have got some sanction from Rutgers, but his action with the webcam was illegal. You can say "he's unlucky to be prosecuted," but that doesn't make him not guilty. He could have taken a deal and got community service and the bias charges dropped. I have no sympathy for him trying to brazen out what he did and failing.
DeleteYou're right, Ravi probably wouldn't have been punished. That doesn't mean that he didn't commit a crime or an inhumane act - just that the society we live in wouldn't have cared about the silent humiliation and suffering of someone that is already ostracized for just being who he is.
DeleteWhat he did isn't any different then hiding in the closet, filming, and sharing the videotape. That doesn't mean it's not completely disgusting.
And let's not forget - Clemente DID kill himself. Ravi's actions did result in the death of someone else. Should we just shrug that death off as part of college life?
Actually, by blaming the victim and feeling that s/he deserved the aggression, the likelihood of further aggression is increased.
DeleteYes, s/he does seem riled and perhaps, that is quite telling. Signing off, angry one. I'm heading for the white tea. Peace and love, all! :)
@ AM: Please toss around casual accusations of bigotry if you disagree with somebody. It certainly helps your case. If you haven't noticed, being riled around here is typical.
Delete@Beaker Ben: I don't think it was casual.
Deletehttp://www.derailingfordummies.com/#asbad
Ben, this accusation of mine didn't seem unrelated. It seems quite central to the discussion.
DeleteMy dear Monkey, wonder no more: I love gay people, purple people, aborted people, puppy dogs, Batavian people, Tavis Smiley, and bourbon.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I wonder why millions of people think that convicting Scapegoat Ravi will absolve them of all their decades of hateful and homophobic behavior (which Ravi observed/imitated/internalized). Is he really so different from everybody else? Are the rest of us so perfect and pure? I was a pretty stupid kid when I was 18. I'm not so eager to throw the first (or second or third or fourth) stone at this person. There but for the grace of god go I.
And isn't it odd that we all agree that Ravi never would have been put on trial were it not for Clementi's suicide, and yet the suicide itself was not allowed as evidence in the trial?
Couldn't there have been a better outcome than either to convict or not to convict? Why is this country so determined to generate adversaries (at any cost!), and so opposed to anything like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? If I'm angry, it's not at anybody posting on this thread; rather, I'm disheartened by this culture of ours.
Purple people, huh? That's usually the color selected by people who belittle the experiences of people of color. How does your love for such people manifest itself? Because so far in this thread, it's been a bit harsh.
Deletehttp://miseengarde.tumblr.com/post/16051207304/white-people-can-we-please-stop-bringing-up-purple
This is pretty twisted--considering that Clementi was white and the defendant was a person of color.
DeleteI love all people.
Except myself. I'm a self-hating naked purple person.
It's not "odd" in a tinfoil hat way, you goose. They didn't charge him with making Clementi commit suicide because there were presumably a range of factors, and "being the last straw" isn't a legal proposition.
DeleteRavi wasn't charged with making Clementi kill himself. See the linked articles for his charges. You don't *know* that Ravi wouldn't have been charged - it's probably less likely, but what Ravi did WAS ILLEGAL.
DeleteIf Clementi had been alive, he'd probably not have brought charges because of the shame and humiliation. If he did, he would probably have been brushed aside, as other victims of homophobia, misogyny and racism often are. But that doesn't matter. Clementi *did* kill himself, his grieving family brought charges, and now we have this very well justified outcome.
It's sad - it's so much easier for people to stomach the grieving family of a dead teenager then it is to look a living gay person in the eye and admit that they've been wronged.
You know what's actually twisted, Bubba? Your desire to brush off homophobic actions.
Yeah, you're right. Why, I'll bet Tyler committed suicide just to make trouble for the kid.(/sarcasm)
ReplyDeleteI'm glad this kid got such a stiff sentence. I hope it discourages other pieces of garbage from getting their jollies by humiliating other people. I honestly couldn't care less about the "boys will be boys" defense. It's crap.
Everyone knows how to behave decently, even dudebros; they should just do it. They should mind their own damned business and leave people who aren't harming them the hell alone.
"None" is not an acceptable moniker for commenting. I'd ask that you choose a pseudonym and stick to it. Thank you.
DeleteThe RGM
Sorry. That's my actual Google account nym. I haven't changed anything. If it's not acceptable I won't comment.
DeleteNone: I may be able to make an exception for it, but it's so close to a non-name, and we have an ongoing problem with unnamed trolls who make the page a bit of a pain. I'm happy to have a new voice. There have been other "nones" here, however. I'll try to keep an eye out for that.
DeleteWelcome.
The RGM
Nothin' like a little in-house homophobia to make the misery go down!
ReplyDeleteA single person is suffering for society's problems. At least that makes you feel better.
Delete"A single person is suffering for society's problems..."
DeleteNo, Beaker Ben. Hundreds of thousands of people are suffering for society's problems. There are queer students who are going to school who have feared - and continue to fear - for the thier physical and mental safety because of people like Ravi. If we're not going to call out and serve justice on those who do ill, how do you expect society's problems to get better?
I lied that I'm done here.
DeleteThis is an interesting comparison. I would hope that we don't have to excessively punish anybody just to improve society. That would be some type of twisted puritanical nightmare, just with different letters imprinted on the offender's forehead.
It's not an abstract comparison, Ben, it's a statement of truth. While I recognize that you and I apparently have different views on what constitutes "harsh" punishment (I don't think the statutory minimum sentence is harsh, you evidently do), but frankly there *does* need to be a serious reaction taken to hateful and invasive actions. Until that starts to happen regularly, people will continue to think that it's socially acceptable to bully, torture, and target others for who they are.
DeleteI'm done with this. I've said my piece. If you disagree with me, you may well be justified in doing so. If you can't fathom why I might have my views other than that I must be a homophobe, that says more about you than me.
ReplyDeleteWhat I can't fathom is why you think this discussion is about YOU.
DeleteHonestly, this just seems like two conversations: Ben's reaction to the extremely long potential sentence of 10 years (which I totally agree is too long by about 9.5 years), and the victim-blaming and PC-accusations that society is somehow overreacting to protect them gays.
DeleteI think both sides are right, but the crossfire has led to a lot of confusion.
If Clementi hadn't committed suicide, and had pursued pressing charges against Ravi, Ravi probably would have got community service. You know, the deal he was offered. Ravi's young, yes, but he's also a douchebag and a homophobe. He made his own bed, here.
Delete"....Ravi probably would have got community service."
ReplyDeleteRavi deserves 10 years in a Chinese laogai, but I would prefer to see him in one of those "secret" North Korean logging camps up in Siberia. For thirty years.
The New Yorker did an extensive piece on this case back in February: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/02/06/120206fa_fact_parker
ReplyDeleteI recommend reading it--I am not going to weigh in here, but I will acknowledge that I use this case in one of my classes, on a unit on Community, and the opinions of my students regarding Ravi's actions are as split there as they are here, regarding the scope of the crime and possible punishments. It will be interesting to see how they react now that there has been a verdict.
FYI, and FWIW, he was offered a plea deal of 600 hours of community service and no jail time. He chose to go to trial.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/03/the-tyler-clementi-verdict.html
I'm 'way late to this discussion, but I think BurntChrome (and others) have nailed it.
DeleteWhether Ravi's prison sentence is the flip side of a "blame the victim" mindset or whether ten years is too much, too little, or just right are, to me, the interesting and difficult-to-resolve questions in the discussion.
The easy part is that Ravi was offered a plea-bargain deal, and he rejected it. That turned out to be seriously stupid.
Imagine you were Ravi's parent. Imagine further that you're a raving homophobe and you think that his behavior was just boys- will-be-boys, and that you believe absolutely that Clementi and others like him deserve to die and burn in hell.
Even if you thought Ravi was a hero and his actions were righteous, given a choice between community service and the possibility of a long, long prison sentence, what would you have told your kid to do?
My conflicted thoughts on this case are captured in a series of quotes from this thread (all from the same person). This is not to call anyone out, or to argue for any position, just to capture the issue:
ReplyDelete"Ravi wasn't charged with making Clementi kill himself."
"How was it prosecuted as if Ravi was charged with Clementi's death? The suicide wasn't even allowed in evidence."
and
"And let's not forget - Clemente DID kill himself. Ravi's actions did result in the death of someone else. "
This makes me uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable that anyone would be charged/convicted with having done one thing, then their sentence assessed based upon a different thing. Whether in a court of law or of public opinion, I'm worried how easily the ground shifts back and forth over whether Ravi is responsible for Clementi's death.
I'm also uncomfortable how much I would like to be able to hang Clementi's suicide on this one individual. It would be so easy to put full responsibility on him. To say that *his* actions resulted in the death of another. But we can't put it all on Ravi and go home feeling pure and righteous. And I'm uncomfortable trying to wrestle with that.
But FWIW - the guy is indeed a pretty slimy, what he did was indeed unconscionable, and he did turn down the chance for a lighter (much) sentence. I've not much sympathy for him.
All of your quotes are from me, R a/o G - are you sure you're not calling me out? Feel free to do so.
ReplyDeleteI thought I'd made it pretty clear: I think that the action of filming someone else, without their knowledge, and sharing that film with the public is a gross breach of privacy and absolutely deserved the ten year sentence - regardless of who was filmed or what the actual outcome of that action was.
The part that I'm emotionally invested in - and disgusted about - is that people are using the fact that 1) Clementi was gay and 2) that he killed himself to somehow find a way to excuse Ravi's completely heinous actions. There's the "blame society" folks, who want to excuse the individual person because invasion of privacy and homophobia are a social problem (forgetting that society is made up of individuals); then there's the "Clementi overreacted" crowd, who imply that the poor young man should have just sucked it up; and the "jury was biased" crowd, that dismiss the reality that quite often gay victims are not given the full benefit of the law because of ongoing social homophobia. Each of these arguments has been offered in this thread, and it really saddens me that people working in higher education - people working with students like Ravi and Clementi - hold these attitudes. And we wonder why Ravi thought what he did was okay, with examples like this surrounding him?
I think the ten years is sufficient punishment for the invasion of privacy and malicious intent charges. If Ravi had been charged with causing Clementi's death, I'd hope he would get a far harsher sentence.
There was no way any jury would let Ravi off in this case. Barb may be right that historically, members of the LGBT community have been treated unfairly by the courts, but this case is a sign that society's starting to turn around. It's proof that homophobia is no longer considered acceptable, and a young gay man's death can anger a society so much that they'd do whatever possible to ruin the life of the person who caused it. On one hand, I think this is amazing-- it's about time that people got this angry about hate crimes against the LGBT community. On the other hand, I'm with Ben in that the punishment seems harsh.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just because I'm in my early twenties (and a member of the LGBT community, so don't you dare accuse me of being homophobic, Barb), but I can see what would motivate an eighteen-year-old to film his roommate having sex and spread it around as a prank. College students in general will do nearly anything for a laugh, and at the age of eighteen, his frontal lobe isn't fully developed, meaning his ability to think things through and see the consequences of his actions isn't fully formed yet. I don't know if he would have filmed Tyler Clementi having sex if he was straight-- maybe he would have and maybe he wouldn't have. But prison sentence or no prison sentence, unless he's a complete sociopath, he'll have to live with the guilt of having accidentally killed his roommate. I don't know if he was a raging homophobe or just a kid pulling a poorly thought out prank because I can't read his mind and it's in the media's best interest to pin him down as the former (as the case may in fact be), but with a case like this and an entire country hating him, prison or no prison, his life here is basically over.
I'm a little hesitant to do this, but I ran into a post on the case that struck me as thoughtful, precisely because it avoids making or supporting a single argument (which is what we seem to easily have fallen into doing, despite the complexities of the case): http://gukira.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/deporting-homophobia/ . I offer it without further comment (and without any intent to restart the conversation), except to say that it made me rethink some things I said above.
ReplyDeleteThank you, CC. Great post. I will add this blog post to my list for my class. It is certainly thought-provoking, and shows us just how much farther this country has to go in terms of "equality" under the law.
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