Look, Bubba, can you give it a rest? You're protesting too much. That is how I can tell you are a heterosexual white guy, avatar or no avatar. Come to think of it, the cowboy avatar actually wins you more queer points than you might be comfortable with.
I'm not a fan of the "no minimizing others' experience" rule but I think if the glossary needs an example of it being broken, Bubba's comments would be a great one.
Barb, she is assuming that since Bubba disagrees with the verdict of the Tyler/Ravi trial, that he would necessarily be uncomfortable using an avatar that homosexuals might show some favoritism towards. This diminishes his opinion by implying that his views are motivated by bigotry rather than any rational disagreement. That is offensive.
Ben, Bubba's comments *are* offensive. Pointing out something that is offensive is *not* the same thing as "being" offensive. This kind of attitude - that one shouldn't point out when someone else has said something bigoted because you might hurt their feelings - is one of the main problems with discussions on social issues today. We're so concerned with the feelings of the person who *did the offensive thing* that we tend to ignore the person whom the original offense hurt.
I don't know if Bubba's comments were motivated by bigotry or not, but intent doesn't matter. They were bigoted. End of story.
I find it humorous that beside Bubba's post is an advertisement for male breast reduction.
And I think F&T's comment could be construed as offensive because she's implying Bubba is a homophobe, as in "the cowboy avatar actually wins you more queer points than you might be comfortable with." Homophobes usually have a lot invested in appearing straight to everyone, and take any suggestion that they're gay--or seem gay--as an insult.
And honestly--white guys don't have a lock on protesting too much in academia, or on this blog. Seriously.
Also, for the record, I am very gratified emotionally to see Ravi put away for a few years, because it's not often that you get get someone sentenced to jail for being a grade-A shitheaded asshole. Most assholes are just milling about in the general population, taking secret naked photos of their girlfriends and posting them on the internet, and just in general being insufferable jerks.
But intellectually I think Ravi was railroaded, because the situation would not have turned out the way it did had the victim been female, and had the victim not committed suicide. I'm not a person that supports the idea of legislating against hate crimes, however. Murder is murder, and there's no good reason for it, whether you're killing a guy because he's gay or because he's just finished fucking your wife.
I won't be crying any tears for Ravi, however. Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.
Being told you are acting like a homophobe is in no way the same thing as being the victim of homophobia, and trying to make the claim that the offense is the same in both situations is seriously problematic.
I'm not sure that's what Bubba was doing, but I take your point. I was just trying to explain why F&T's post could be construed as offensive. It's not the kind of thing that would bother me, truthfully. But you asked, so I answered.
And let's say Bubba's comments in the other thread WERE offensive. That doesn't mean that comments directed against him can't be offensive here. It's not a contest. There are all kinds and all levels of offense, and one doesn't necessarily cancel out the other.
It's a very heated topic and I know that because of my own reaction to the trial. I want to punish Ravi as well. My emotion and desire for revenge against him is not in proportion to the actual illegality of his actions.
Stella, are you again trying to say that saying Bubba's comments are bigoted is as offensive as the bigotry itself? Because it's not. Really, it's not. His comments in the other thread were bigoted. His post starting this thread was derailing and inappropriate. Calling him out on this is not offensive.
Shit, I'm totally lost now with where this is all going. This is kind of like "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know."
I'm going to check out and find other ways to waste my time for the next several days.
I was just addressing why F&T's comment might be construed as offensive. I wasn't addressing whether it was appropriate or not, or whether it is. I'm sure if it was construed as inappropriate by the mods, it would be moderated.
I didn't mean to chase after you. And I do still adore you. But some of your phrases were on the harsh, almost stereotypical side of things.
I think it's just as well if we all realize that we have our ways of speaking that might be categorized as privileged or whatnot, even when our hearts are in the right place. Like your love of purple people. Purple people don't exist, and professing to love them in addition to all other people -- black and blue and brown and yellow! -- actually serves to discount the real life experiences of actual people of color.
It's a nice thought ("I don't dwell on race!") but it ends up being racist in the end. Not Big Bad Dude KKK-style racist, but dismissive and dehumanizing all the same.
Thanks, Barb, for your cogent comments. I'm taking a break from this blog for a while. Somehow, dismissively homophobic and racist comments seem to be just dandy here, and frankly, that gets me right where it hurts. I'm fond of everyone here (with the possible exception of a few trolls), but I think quite a few comments here and on the previous blog are depressingly ignorant -- not mean, but ignorant, and apparently those who made them are content to stay that way.
Stella, there's a difference between "protesting," by which I assume you mean whining, and calling out some messed-up attitudes. Ravi didn't deserve all of what he got, but he got a chance to get something better and refused it. Clementi is dead, and nothing will bring him back. I worry terribly that my child will be gay like me, not because I won't accept her if she is, but because of the rest of the world.
F&T, sometimes the difference between protesting and whining is in the eye of the beholder. That's all I'm saying. And you're right in that Ravi should have taken a plea. In a way I'm glad he didn't because now he's going to get far more jail time than he would have. Emotionally that feels right to me, because emotionally I want to see him suffer. I mean, if he gets raped in prison repeatedly, to me that would seem like just desserts.
But that's my emotions talking. Legally, he should not get ten years. And legally, the justice system should work equally for everyone. "Everyone" includes Ravi, as it does Clementi.
Stella, legally, Ravi *should* get ten years at least. Because that's the minimum that the statutes call for. I think what you mean is that in your OPINION Ravi's crimes do not merit ten years. Did you read any of the coverage of the case, where the legal situation is laid out pretty damn clearly?
"Eye of the beholder," huh? It's funny how the eye of privileged people consistently decides that it's minority groups who are whining.
What I'm saying, Barb, is that had Clementi not been a gay man, and had he not killed himself, Ravi probably wouldn't be doing any time at all. I'm glad he is, but I recognize the inconsistency.
As for the "eye of the beholder," you're in academia. Have you never experienced feminists whining? Or gay people whining? Or black people whining? Because I have.
No one has a monopoly on whining. I've been in academia for more than 25 years and I've seen some feminists say some pretty stupid fucking shit. And I'm a feminist. Ditto African-American and gay academics.
I will gleefully admit that white guys seem to say more stupid shit than anyone else, but hell, they outnumber us.
You're right that if Clementi hadn't killed himself Ravi probably wouldn't be doing time. That's because charges probably wouldn't have been brought. That doesn't mean that what Ravi did was okay. And it doesn't mean that Clementi's life wouldn't have been ruined. Coming out of the closet under the best of circumstances is still a risky proposition; being forced out in this way would be devastating.
It's really sad that it takes the death of someone before people are willing to acknowledge that bigotry kills and that it's never okay to invade someone's privacy.
No, I've never experienced minority people "whining." I've heard a lot of feminists speak up against sexism, and queer people speak up against homophobia, and people of color speak up against racism.
What I have heard is a lot of men and anti-feminist women, and straight people, and White people, whine about how it's the minorities fault when sexism, racism and homophobia happen. Damn, if those pesky minorities would just stop "making a big deal" of being ostracized, bullied and harassed, then the problems would go away. Because for people with gender, sexual and race privilege, the "problem" is that they have to face up to their shit.
For minorities, it's being oppressed. Do you see the difference?
Wow, Barb, it seems like you're saying all non-homosexuals, anti-feminists, and white people are wrong. Is your thinking really that polarized? That seems very dangerous to me. Feminists, homosexuals and minorities can be just as racist, bigoted, and sexist as others. Being an underrepresented minority, or a homosexual, or a feminist doesn't make one automatically enlightened. I got this same vibe that you think in polarities from you before when you 'curiously' demanded to know my race in the 'ethnicity of administrators' article. Is that really what you mean to imply here, because that's what comes across in both posts (i.e. that if you don't agree with Ravi's sentence, or Bubba's sense of humor, you must be a homophobe, or if you're not in support of more minorities being hired, you must be a racist, or if you know whiny women, you must be antifeminist). I'm really uncomfortable with that kind of what I deem illogical reasoning. But perhaps that's not what you MEAN by what you've posted here and I've just read into it my own biases.
No, I've never experienced minority people "whining." I've heard a lot of feminists speak up against sexism, and queer people speak up against homophobia, and people of color speak up against racism.
You know, "whining" may not be the right word. But I've seen feminists brutally go after a colleague for absolutely no reason. One--in her feminism class--cited a male colleague who'd married a younger woman. She cited him by name and as an example of everything that was "wrong" with men. She actually tried to organize a boycott of his classes because he told a self-deprecating joke--outside of the university, that she found offensive. I know this guy. And I know her. She was acting crazy because she was upset he had not chosen to date her. Want to know how I know? She told me.
Yeah, I've seen hysterical feminists. I've also seen people of color attempt to trade on it to keep jobs that they were not qualified for. In one case, the person lied about their PhD. A white guy almost lost his job, because it was between her and him. The head of the department, a famous feminist, was going to side with the liar, until the dean intervened. That same famous feminist went after another woman in the department that she didn't approve of because she wore heels and makeup. Do you think I'm kidding? I'm not.
Women, people of color, and gays are not automatically ennobled just because they have vaginas, darker skin, and the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. I've found that human beings act as human beings do--often amorally and selfishly. Gender and race and sexual orientation have absolutely nothing to do with it.
What's different is that the white men happen to have the power. Or most of it. That's the difference. I've not been fucked over by feminists. I've only been fucked over by white guys. And white guys have helped me a great deal. As have feminists.
As a veteran of academe, I have many, many more examples. The good, the bad, the ugly. I'm not sure if this is making any sense. Again, "whining" may not be the right word, though in the case of the first feminist in her classroom, it certainly might apply.
If it walks like a dog, and quacks like a dog...
ReplyDeleteFeel free to provide examples of how other groups of people might write on this blog.
DeleteShe already is.
DeleteLook, Bubba, can you give it a rest? You're protesting too much. That is how I can tell you are a heterosexual white guy, avatar or no avatar. Come to think of it, the cowboy avatar actually wins you more queer points than you might be comfortable with.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan of the "no minimizing others' experience" rule but I think if the glossary needs an example of it being broken, Bubba's comments would be a great one.
Are you trying to match Bubba with offensive comments? Because I think you already won.
DeletePlease explain how Frog and Toad's comment is offensive.
DeleteBarb, she is assuming that since Bubba disagrees with the verdict of the Tyler/Ravi trial, that he would necessarily be uncomfortable using an avatar that homosexuals might show some favoritism towards. This diminishes his opinion by implying that his views are motivated by bigotry rather than any rational disagreement. That is offensive.
DeleteBen, Bubba's comments *are* offensive. Pointing out something that is offensive is *not* the same thing as "being" offensive. This kind of attitude - that one shouldn't point out when someone else has said something bigoted because you might hurt their feelings - is one of the main problems with discussions on social issues today. We're so concerned with the feelings of the person who *did the offensive thing* that we tend to ignore the person whom the original offense hurt.
DeleteI don't know if Bubba's comments were motivated by bigotry or not, but intent doesn't matter. They were bigoted. End of story.
No one else finds Ben's comments in the other thread just as offensive?
DeleteNo surprise who is defending whom to me....
The_Myth I agree with you. It was no surprise to me as well.
DeleteI find it humorous that beside Bubba's post is an advertisement for male breast reduction.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think F&T's comment could be construed as offensive because she's implying Bubba is a homophobe, as in "the cowboy avatar actually wins you more queer points than you might be comfortable with." Homophobes usually have a lot invested in appearing straight to everyone, and take any suggestion that they're gay--or seem gay--as an insult.
And honestly--white guys don't have a lock on protesting too much in academia, or on this blog. Seriously.
Also, for the record, I am very gratified emotionally to see Ravi put away for a few years, because it's not often that you get get someone sentenced to jail for being a grade-A shitheaded asshole. Most assholes are just milling about in the general population, taking secret naked photos of their girlfriends and posting them on the internet, and just in general being insufferable jerks.
But intellectually I think Ravi was railroaded, because the situation would not have turned out the way it did had the victim been female, and had the victim not committed suicide. I'm not a person that supports the idea of legislating against hate crimes, however. Murder is murder, and there's no good reason for it, whether you're killing a guy because he's gay or because he's just finished fucking your wife.
I won't be crying any tears for Ravi, however. Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.
Being told you are acting like a homophobe is in no way the same thing as being the victim of homophobia, and trying to make the claim that the offense is the same in both situations is seriously problematic.
DeleteI'm not sure that's what Bubba was doing, but I take your point. I was just trying to explain why F&T's post could be construed as offensive. It's not the kind of thing that would bother me, truthfully. But you asked, so I answered.
DeleteAnd let's say Bubba's comments in the other thread WERE offensive. That doesn't mean that comments directed against him can't be offensive here. It's not a contest. There are all kinds and all levels of offense, and one doesn't necessarily cancel out the other.
It's a very heated topic and I know that because of my own reaction to the trial. I want to punish Ravi as well. My emotion and desire for revenge against him is not in proportion to the actual illegality of his actions.
Stella, are you again trying to say that saying Bubba's comments are bigoted is as offensive as the bigotry itself? Because it's not. Really, it's not. His comments in the other thread were bigoted. His post starting this thread was derailing and inappropriate. Calling him out on this is not offensive.
DeleteShit, I'm totally lost now with where this is all going. This is kind of like "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know."
DeleteI'm going to check out and find other ways to waste my time for the next several days.
Barb,
DeleteI was just addressing why F&T's comment might be construed as offensive. I wasn't addressing whether it was appropriate or not, or whether it is. I'm sure if it was construed as inappropriate by the mods, it would be moderated.
I am kind of imagining that after the past 18 hours, the mods are lying on a chaise longue with a cold compress and some smelling salts.
DeleteWhat's difficult, at times like this, is figuring out exactly what the blog really wants to be.
DeleteOh Bubba.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean to chase after you. And I do still adore you. But some of your phrases were on the harsh, almost stereotypical side of things.
I think it's just as well if we all realize that we have our ways of speaking that might be categorized as privileged or whatnot, even when our hearts are in the right place. Like your love of purple people. Purple people don't exist, and professing to love them in addition to all other people -- black and blue and brown and yellow! -- actually serves to discount the real life experiences of actual people of color.
It's a nice thought ("I don't dwell on race!") but it ends up being racist in the end. Not Big Bad Dude KKK-style racist, but dismissive and dehumanizing all the same.
Thanks, Barb, for your cogent comments. I'm taking a break from this blog for a while. Somehow, dismissively homophobic and racist comments seem to be just dandy here, and frankly, that gets me right where it hurts. I'm fond of everyone here (with the possible exception of a few trolls), but I think quite a few comments here and on the previous blog are depressingly ignorant -- not mean, but ignorant, and apparently those who made them are content to stay that way.
ReplyDeleteStella, there's a difference between "protesting," by which I assume you mean whining, and calling out some messed-up attitudes. Ravi didn't deserve all of what he got, but he got a chance to get something better and refused it. Clementi is dead, and nothing will bring him back. I worry terribly that my child will be gay like me, not because I won't accept her if she is, but because of the rest of the world.
'Bye, all, for a while.
I'm sorry, Frog and Toad. Take care of yourself.
DeleteF&T, sometimes the difference between protesting and whining is in the eye of the beholder. That's all I'm saying. And you're right in that Ravi should have taken a plea. In a way I'm glad he didn't because now he's going to get far more jail time than he would have. Emotionally that feels right to me, because emotionally I want to see him suffer. I mean, if he gets raped in prison repeatedly, to me that would seem like just desserts.
DeleteBut that's my emotions talking. Legally, he should not get ten years. And legally, the justice system should work equally for everyone. "Everyone" includes Ravi, as it does Clementi.
Stella, legally, Ravi *should* get ten years at least. Because that's the minimum that the statutes call for. I think what you mean is that in your OPINION Ravi's crimes do not merit ten years. Did you read any of the coverage of the case, where the legal situation is laid out pretty damn clearly?
Delete"Eye of the beholder," huh? It's funny how the eye of privileged people consistently decides that it's minority groups who are whining.
What I'm saying, Barb, is that had Clementi not been a gay man, and had he not killed himself, Ravi probably wouldn't be doing any time at all. I'm glad he is, but I recognize the inconsistency.
DeleteAs for the "eye of the beholder," you're in academia. Have you never experienced feminists whining? Or gay people whining? Or black people whining? Because I have.
No one has a monopoly on whining. I've been in academia for more than 25 years and I've seen some feminists say some pretty stupid fucking shit. And I'm a feminist. Ditto African-American and gay academics.
I will gleefully admit that white guys seem to say more stupid shit than anyone else, but hell, they outnumber us.
Stella, where exactly are you going with this? Jesus Christ.
DeleteSee my reply to Barb, AM.
DeleteYou're right that if Clementi hadn't killed himself Ravi probably wouldn't be doing time. That's because charges probably wouldn't have been brought. That doesn't mean that what Ravi did was okay. And it doesn't mean that Clementi's life wouldn't have been ruined. Coming out of the closet under the best of circumstances is still a risky proposition; being forced out in this way would be devastating.
ReplyDeleteIt's really sad that it takes the death of someone before people are willing to acknowledge that bigotry kills and that it's never okay to invade someone's privacy.
No, I've never experienced minority people "whining." I've heard a lot of feminists speak up against sexism, and queer people speak up against homophobia, and people of color speak up against racism.
What I have heard is a lot of men and anti-feminist women, and straight people, and White people, whine about how it's the minorities fault when sexism, racism and homophobia happen. Damn, if those pesky minorities would just stop "making a big deal" of being ostracized, bullied and harassed, then the problems would go away. Because for people with gender, sexual and race privilege, the "problem" is that they have to face up to their shit.
For minorities, it's being oppressed. Do you see the difference?
Ever seen affirmative action in action? Then yes you have experienced minority people whining.
DeleteWow, Barb, it seems like you're saying all non-homosexuals, anti-feminists, and white people are wrong. Is your thinking really that polarized? That seems very dangerous to me. Feminists, homosexuals and minorities can be just as racist, bigoted, and sexist as others. Being an underrepresented minority, or a homosexual, or a feminist doesn't make one automatically enlightened. I got this same vibe that you think in polarities from you before when you 'curiously' demanded to know my race in the 'ethnicity of administrators' article. Is that really what you mean to imply here, because that's what comes across in both posts (i.e. that if you don't agree with Ravi's sentence, or Bubba's sense of humor, you must be a homophobe, or if you're not in support of more minorities being hired, you must be a racist, or if you know whiny women, you must be antifeminist). I'm really uncomfortable with that kind of what I deem illogical reasoning. But perhaps that's not what you MEAN by what you've posted here and I've just read into it my own biases.
DeleteNo, I've never experienced minority people "whining." I've heard a lot of feminists speak up against sexism, and queer people speak up against homophobia, and people of color speak up against racism.
ReplyDeleteYou know, "whining" may not be the right word. But I've seen feminists brutally go after a colleague for absolutely no reason. One--in her feminism class--cited a male colleague who'd married a younger woman. She cited him by name and as an example of everything that was "wrong" with men. She actually tried to organize a boycott of his classes because he told a self-deprecating joke--outside of the university, that she found offensive. I know this guy. And I know her. She was acting crazy because she was upset he had not chosen to date her. Want to know how I know? She told me.
Yeah, I've seen hysterical feminists. I've also seen people of color attempt to trade on it to keep jobs that they were not qualified for. In one case, the person lied about their PhD. A white guy almost lost his job, because it was between her and him. The head of the department, a famous feminist, was going to side with the liar, until the dean intervened. That same famous feminist went after another woman in the department that she didn't approve of because she wore heels and makeup. Do you think I'm kidding? I'm not.
Women, people of color, and gays are not automatically ennobled just because they have vaginas, darker skin, and the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. I've found that human beings act as human beings do--often amorally and selfishly. Gender and race and sexual orientation have absolutely nothing to do with it.
What's different is that the white men happen to have the power. Or most of it. That's the difference. I've not been fucked over by feminists. I've only been fucked over by white guys. And white guys have helped me a great deal. As have feminists.
As a veteran of academe, I have many, many more examples. The good, the bad, the ugly. I'm not sure if this is making any sense. Again, "whining" may not be the right word, though in the case of the first feminist in her classroom, it certainly might apply.