- How did this page go from one of the most enjoyable experiences of my day to a knock down fight? It feels like it's happened all in the past week. It's just not fun here anymore. You've let the combatants go way way way overboard this time. I'm not coming back.
- I'm beyond frustrated with how you've let Xxxxxx bully me and others today. This is my blog, too, and you're killing it by not fighting back.
- Are you even paying attention? The site is under siege by Xxxxxxx and Xxxxxxx. Are you going to stop it?
- I'm through with this page. It's become so uncivil over the past week, and you've done nothing to quell it. You're not really interested in having a good blog.
- I've been on this site from day one, and I've never seen it this bad. The past several days have been ridiculous. People are not acting responsibly, and I know it's the Internet and all, but I've come to expect so much more from this site, and from how you moderate it. But it's out of control, hateful, and combative. I can't take it.
- I'm leaving the page. You can give my posting rights to someone else.
- If people are not going to act as if their words matter, this is not a place I need to spend my time. Godspeed to you, because you need it with the fucking crazies who are loose here today.
- I'm giving up my posting rights effective today. I have been abused terribly on the site today, not directly perhaps, but because of an issue that has gone unchecked, and I refuse to allow your bullys - because I assume you must agree with them to leave their inflammatory comments up all day long - to make me feel small. Good riddance.
- It would be best if you would just erase the last week from CM's existence, because we look like any other group of fatuous internet assholes.
And there's more.
I was not on the page today, so am just now catching up. I'm not interested in taking sides or naming names. But what gets me the most is that this latest flareup involves such good folks, people who have been steady and reliable contributors to the page for so many months. Yet there's a real sense to me, at least, that some of the participants are unwilling to be civil to each other on the issues at hand. I know we get heated.
But I don't believe much can get sorted out or discussed if the level of the rhetoric gets so hot.
The RGM
I was pretty surprised at the intensity of what went on.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, though, how anyone could possibly monitor what goes on 24/7, or how it is reasonable to expect that.
I've no idea if this suggestion is going to be helpful or not, but how about a few days of posts as normal, but no comments being possible? Maybe that gives people time to reflect on how much the blog means to so many, and, as a result, allows hope for the civility you mentioned in future discussions. As you mentioned, this wasn't a group of trolls (or even a single troll).
As ever, thanks for all you do.
Um...I get the feeling that as one of the most prolific commenters in the last threads, I'm one of the people who is being accused of abusing other people and contributing to the "uncivil" discourse on this page. I'd really appreciate it if someone pointed out exactly where they think I was uncivil, so I could make restitution if appropriate...or if it seems like this is an issue where I feel I should not back down, I'll know to stay the hell away from here in the future.
ReplyDeleteI was so civil it hurt. Not one single f-bomb. I think I deserve a fucking cookie.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, I don't think the debate was that terrible or vitriolic, especially considering some of the other places I was reading about this story. I do wonder if readers here spend much time anywhere else on the internet.
You deserve two fucking cookies.
DeleteAnd yeah, compared to places I've seen, this has been pretty fucking tame. I didn't find it to be so horrible, but then I have a very, very thick skin. My family argues far more brutally than this. I just had a knock-down, drag-out screaming match with my 81-year-old mother about Sarah Palin, and I swore an awful lot. Lost it, pretty much. Afterwards we both just shrugged and watched Jon Stewart.
I don't deserve a fucking cookie. I certainly wasn't writing as if my grandmother might see it. However, I think the debate was pretty reasonable, at least compared to those I have in real life. If you aren't having a heated discussion about the proper relationship between justice, individual rights and society at large, you're really not trying hard.
DeleteI agree that the topic of exchange was heated, but it seemed that we all spent a few moments establishing that we respect and admire each other. Maybe I'm just too optimistic? Ben and I were sort of on opposite sides of things, but I made the point to show that I agreed with what he was saying about overly lengthy jail time.
DeleteHonestly, I think this is just a case of lots of smart people tackling a complicated subject. I still love this blog, and I'm sorry people aren't enjoying themselves. Perhaps we ought to return to the Snowflake Smack.
Yes, it feels raw and wounded here. I hate to see anyone leave, and it hurts my heart to see the vitriol that came out of the earlier discussion. RGM, you do fine work here. I'm sorry you've been hit with such a deluge of complaints. I hope folks can heal up and move on. This site is so strong because of the intellect and passion brought to it by the contributors--it would be a shame to see those strengths lead to its downfall.
ReplyDeleteRGM, I do not think you could have done anything to improve the situation. However, I totally understand the feeling expressed in those e-mails. I had to ask myself some of the very same questions. It seems that this was a very polarizing topic. Hopefully, we can put it behind us and move on.
ReplyDeleteI want to assert that I'm not wounded. None of my post has to do with me or my feelings. I'm reporting on what readers are bringing my way.
ReplyDeleteDon't anyone worry about how I'm doing, seriously. It's kind and all, but I'm only interested in finding a way for the place to be an enjoyable place to come and vent.
The dynamic of this week has been very much against one another, and that's not at all what I'm interested in the page being.
I've since received email from a number of people involved, each noting how they were completely reasonable and civil throughout, and that the "others" were ridiculously rude. It would make a dandy Venn diagram.
I really feel at a crossroads here because using evidence from the past week, this is not the page I thought CM was. It becomes what it becomes obviously, and the posts and comments drive it that way.
But I can't help but think - based on the folks I'm hearing from - that there's been an unfriendly shift.
Okay, sorry to beat a dead horse, but I would really, really like an example of where people were "vitrolic" or even simply rude. I'd love the Venn diagram. I felt everybody - even those with whom I disagree very passionately - were polite. I worked very, very hard to be civil.
DeleteIt's this kind of thing that makes me really hesitant to contribute my stories to this page. My workplace is filled with these sort of unnamed, under-the-table, complaints. It creates a completely toxic atmosphere. I'd like to come here to vent, but in the past it's been pretty clear that the things I would vent about were not going to get a positive response in this community.
I actually appreciated the more recent threads were there seemed to be actual discussion between adults - a refreshing contrast to real life. Apparently I have a very wrong idea of what went on. Again, please someone, tell me where I was rude.
(And I'm posting this here, rather than just e-mailing you, RGM, because I really prefer to keep things out in the open.)
I don't understand why you think this is about you, Barb.
DeleteI think this is rude: Great idea, Bubba. Really. People who practice hate and drive others to kill themselves through their horrible actions really should be prosecuted. Maybe if we start demonstrating that we actually take discrimination and hate seriously, and don't approve of it through our silent inaction, we can stop these things from happening.
DeleteOh, wait. You're being sarcastic. Sorry, I thought you might have been demonstrating some compassion.
I think it was rude when Barb said this to Bubba: "If Tyler Clemente had not been gay, would you be so invested in defending Ravi's actions?"
DeleteWhere did Bubba defend Ravi?
Barb, I very much share your point of view on most of this.
DeleteBut you're not the only one who feels that a wrong has been done here. You've sucked up all of the air in the room about this, and unfairly seem to want to stand alone against everyone else.
I agree with you, but feel after a day of reading and thinking about your comments that I want to give Ben and Bubba hugs because your indignation intimates a level of dispassion and lack of empathy on their parts that I know is not there.
I think Bubba was a bit, as the UK newspapers say, "tired and emotional".
DeleteDarla has spoken for me, simply, and beautifully.
DeleteLet's not begin the analysis of our past comments. The battle was fought. We're done.
DeleteThis is not what the page is all about, but it's part of it.
We are all pretty smart, opinionated and believe we are right. Overall, that's better for the blog than a bunch of dumb people who have nothing to say.
We've had a few topics recently that brought out some vitriol but overall, CM is still CM. Unless this becomes simply a digest for recent controversial academic news, things will get back to normal.
As with others, I'm surprised at the angst here in the aftermath. All in all, it was pretty tame, given the subject matter, and that this is the internet, with pseudonym identities. Nearly all the discussion involved language and 'strategies' that I've seen at the table during yet another mind-numbing committee meeting. The 'implied/inferred/suggested' accusations of homophobia/racism/whatever follow a very close trajectory to Goodwin's Law, as soon as you get a whole bunch of profs into a lecture hall discussing a contentious topic. I'm surprised that some people have decided to leave for good over this, as you have to have a pretty thick skin to deal with the misery that the CM is all about. Actually, CM would lose some of its flava if it was only about nice smelling fucking posies in the discussion threads.
DeleteMaybe this is just spring break Misery style. Came across this on The Next Web in today's feed reader catch, The World Wide Soapbox: Let freedom of speech flourish, but don’t feed the trolls
ReplyDeleteThat's a neat article, Vanessa. What's so weird is that what happened today had nothing to do with trolls; it was all from people who are really on the page a lot, all people I've come to know and like. I didn't even recognize some of them. Fab, did you check some IPs? Did anyone sockpuppet a regular? Seems unlikely, but it did seem out of character for some people involved.
DeleteHey, I'm not really an official here, but I do help Fab when the wheels come off. There is more infighting this week than usual. It bugs me, too, but that's just personally. I mean, if that's what you want, that's okay by me.
ReplyDeleteBut again, it's not my page. Fab started it. He's run it most of the time. I think I know him well enough - entirely through email and phone calls - to know that this infighting bugs him. I'm not saying that's good or bad. Listen, Fab is a very sweet and funny guy, and he takes it personally if people don't enjoy the site.
If I stumbled across the page today for the first time, I'd think, "Hmm, just like any internet forum, people throwing haymakers of logic at each other." That happens on the internet, am I right? That it exists elsewhere does not necessarily mean it's what is right or ideal.
I really think CM can do better than what it's shown this past week (with the 2 separate and quite different dustups).
This place IS really fun most of the time. Just my opinion. I have strong feelings about the Clementi case, too, but once that thread got going, I felt as if it would be impossible to enter into it. It became awfully personal and judgmental right away, and some overreaching judgments about people fill that thread. If you don't see it, you might still be too close to it. Read it again tomorrow and think about how some of the dialogue would have gone over at a casual dinner somewhere.
I told Fab from the beginning that opening up comments would mean a LOT of things, things I could never have guessed at. Of course it's great. We get to share lots of ideas among an interested group. But we've also seen this week what happens if the duck gets even a little out of the pond. Man, it gets its ass beat. Maybe that's bad news for the duck, but I think it's bad news for all of us.
"I have strong feelings about the Clementi case, too, but once that thread got going, I felt as if it would be impossible to enter into it."
Delete+1. I didn't even bother commenting on that because it was a powder keg soaked in gasoline next to a match factory. I remember reading somewhere that there's 4 different personality types and that to be successful in society you usually have to become a blend of all these types. Well the internet makes people tend to polarize quite a bit. Maybe it wears on people having to act so damn neutral in the real world and the internet is stress relief. Dunno...someone find someone from the sociology department to shoot that shit down.
I totally agree. I got a feeling that no matter what, if I contributed anything, two sides had been already been drawn, and one was either painted as a bigot or as not depending on which side was reading or responding.
DeleteMaybe I'm just too new here to have experienced the Victorian-era style of inter-commenter demeanor that made CM a haven of civility in the past. Or maybe I've just been around the web for too long. But if the recent commenting disagreements are any indications, any person leaving because of the perceived abrasiveness of our comments section better not visit ANY websites with comments EVER again. CM's disagreements are tame and mild by any standard that I have witnessed online.
ReplyDeleteTo quote my favorite author: "Yes, your feelings got hurt a wee bit. Deal with it and move on. Sincerely, signed:LIFE."
St. Patrick's Day, save me a pint.
"But if the recent commenting disagreements are any indications, any person leaving because of the perceived abrasiveness of our comments section better not visit ANY websites with comments EVER again. CM's disagreements are tame and mild by any standard that I have witnessed online. "
DeleteAbsolutely agree. I would hate to think people can't disagree here. If people were seriously distressed about that exchange, then maybe we need to have a convo about expectations. Honestly, though, every place I know of online that has some kind of "only be kind and no disagreeing" rule ends up having some secret section where everyone is backstabbing. Better to tolerate some dissent, even if it occasionally gets heated.
Too many people with virgin eyes apparently. Have these whiners never seen a youtube video and the comments that go on there? In comparison this place is team time with raised pinky fingers.
ReplyDeleteWell, OK, I'm not *quite* on the break I think I need yet -- but I think that the reason it can get so hot so fast is precisely that we DO know each other, sort of. For instance, I like Bubba. I think he's funny and a breath of fresh air, even when we don't agree. Ben is smart and also has a wicked, often right to the point, kind of wit, though I don't always agree with him either. So it actually *hurt* in a kind of visceral way when they seemed to be excusing or minimizing Ravi's obvious homophobia -- hurt as in, oh, damn, I mistook these people for allies. I don't mean that thinking a 10 year sentence is a bit much is the problem; I, too, think the pleas that Ravi was offered made more sense given his youth and first-time offense status. I mean that the defenses of this position sounded dismissive of the worth of Clementi's life or the rather hellish experience of many queer youth. "Deal with it and move on" only works for idiosyncratic little hurts. It doesn't work so well when someone you like replicates something about society that you have already endured.
ReplyDeleteI apologize, Bubba, for reacting so personally and negatively to your "on the internet" post. It felt flip to me, a kind of mumble-mumble gee whiz show when maybe something more thoughtful was called for. But I shouldn't have called you out personally, and I shouldn't have made a mean remark insinuating that you wouldn't be comfortable as a queer cowboy (I suspect you'd make a cute one). That came from a plain old hurt place.
Anyway, I've learned that when my temper flares, even if I only recognize in retrospect that it has, I need to step away. Which I will now do. That is not the same as leaving the blog, even if some of you may wish I would do exactly that. Long live the duck.
F&T, sorry to see you take a break. Nothing I said was meant to be personal, although I understand this story affects you personally in ways that it does not for me.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think it is a false dichotomy, and I am concerned about how one would go about starting to impose rules to keep it one thing and not the other. We've always just posted stuff we thought readers might be interested in because it was relevant (even if tangentially) to the CM. Given all the wangst the other day about not enough posts, do you really want to start setting more limits about what material is and isn't okay?
DeleteAlso, why does the experience have to be homogenous? If I want pablum, I can go to The Crampicle.
@RGM: I like that you are anthropomorphizing the blog. "What does the blog want to be? The blog wants to eat chocolate cake. The blog feels a bit under-the-weather. The blog misses her mommy. The blog wants to be an astronaut when she grows up…."
ReplyDeleteOf course, what I did't like was repeatedly being called a bigot. I don't know if any commenter actually said, "Prove to me that you're not a bigot." But I felt it. And how does one go about proving that s/he's not a bigot?
What's really sad about the entire Tyler Clementi thread is that people were immediately drawing lines in the sand. You're either for us or against us. Which is it?!"
My dear old chum, The Monkey, usually one of the most level-headed people at CM (and one whom I still love), even felt compelled to "clarify," early on, "I am hopelessly sympathetic to the Tyler Clementi side of things."
That surprised and saddened me. Is anyone here at CM really glad that Clementi is dead? Is there anyone here who doesn't feel absolutely awful that this kid killed himself? And yet the perversity of the dialogue made even one of the sanest members of this community feel the need to clarify which "side" of the line s/he was on.
So I'll clarify something: If my son ever killed himself, there would be no end to my grief. I don't know how I would get out of bed any morning after that. What would be the purpose? The one consolation for Clementi's parents is that they know that their son trusted them enough that he came out to them before he died. It can be tremendously frustrating having a child. Lots of parents don't know that their sons trust and love them. At least Clementi's parents have that.
I'll say something else. I generally talk to my son the same way I write at CM. So instead of telling him that these people are bad and those people are good, I just make sure that he knows I love him, and I ask him lots of questions and welcome all of his questions. I've never been sarcastic with him--not as far as I can recall. And, yes, I fucking use profanity with him. But I love him and he knows it. And I love CM in somewhat the same way.
And so today I have spent some time asking myself, for example, "What does F&T know that I don't know? What's her experience?" And so forth. This is someone whose comments I usually like to read, so these last two days have been unpleasant. Thanks for your words, F&T.
Bubba, briefly, I was once fired from a factory job when my co-workers discovered I am bisexual. This was 15 years ago, and within an hour of my having come out to a co-worker (casually discussing a new girlfriend), there was a violent altercation and a group of people chanting "FAGGOT WHORE" while throwing hard objects at me. I was fired that day, mid-shift, and told that my presence on the premises would be considered trespassing.
DeleteI went to a lawyer about it (they threw these hard candies at me as I sought shelter in the Break Room, which felt like assault in addition to unjust termination) but the state I was in had no protections on the basis of orientation.
So stories of people stalking, tormenting, or mocking people for their sexuality really strikes home for me. The use of the F-GG word brings back one my worst memories, ever.
So I remain hopelessly sympathetic to Tyler, not because of his death, but because I feel we experienced a similar life event. Even writing about it right now makes my heart race.
I do adore you, Bubba, and I'm sorry if I came off as offensive. The things Ravi did really hit home for me personally.
I'm hopelessly sympathetic to you.
DeleteThe first comment I made on that Clementi thread was, "I don't know any teenagers who don't hate somebody. Let's throw them all in jail." I said it the same way one of us might say, "I've never met a dean that wasn't evil. They should all be burned at the stake." Or, "What do you call 500 lawyers chained together at the bottom of the ocean?… A good start."
ReplyDeleteThat was before I realized that thread was going to completely turn into the mindfuck extravaganza that it turned into.
But, more importantly, there is a difference between sarcasm , humor , and irony. Is it condescending to mention that?
Well, so be it. There were times when my comments were misconstrued as sarcasm (or bigoted or whatever). Well, fuck that. I'm not a bigot. ("Some of my best friends are anti-bigots?") Oh, fuck that, too, because we've all got our prejudices, and it's stupid to deny it.
More than anything, these last couple of days, CM seemed like a bunch of people who were suffering and needing to feel understood and appreciated. There's been lots of goddamn time wasted calculating identity-privilege scores on that particular thread.
Dave Chappelle did a little piece that might be somewhat relevant. (Might not.) There's just enough in there to offend everyone.
Identity politics is a motherfucker.
So, RGM, what does the blog want? It wants to be a goddamned astronaut. I'm glad you wrote this "Not fun" post and have received some really meaningful comments on it. Love everybody.
One more thing....
ReplyDeleteIt just seems so sad what's going on with this Ravi kid. I understand and appreciate why people are angry at him, but I don't feel any anger. I just feel very sad for him. Why sad instead of angry? Because either he has a heart or he doesn't. If he has a heart, then he'll have to live with this awful shit he did to Clementi for the rest of his life. And if he doesn't have a heart, then I pity him and his pathetic, empty existence. Either way, it's sad.
Like I said before, there but for the grace of god go I.
Thanks, Southern Bubba, for still posting. I'm glad you're not one who has left the site.
ReplyDeleteI have stayed out of this because I was grading, rather than surfing the interwebs this weekend, and when I did check in, I had no idea how to even respond (I felt kind of like the kid who hides in the closet when mom and dad are fighting). I'm glad you are still around and haven't been scared off by those who have called you a bigot for using the general flippant/sarcastic/ironic tone many of us use on this blog.
It seems as if any topic that isn't about snowflake behavior we've come to love/hate derails us and we become vitriolic, self righteous people who demand evidence that the other poster isn't as enlightened as we are (reminiscent of posturing I've seen at MLA conferences). It's a very negative vibe that I hope we can all move past.
Geez, CC, was that you I met in the closet? I was busy this week and only checked in once or twice, and when I noticed the Clementi thread had exploded in a very unpleasant way I just tiptoed past. I don't even know what the other dustup was. Now I'll have to read back to find it.
ReplyDeleteFab, anyone who uses as evidence of your bias the fact that you didn't instantly remove every comment they object to (because you were, I don't know, having an internet outage or a life or something that day perhaps) is just being mean, or overtired, or a proflake. I say that not knowing who left, and maybe it was someone I like, and if it was, I'm sorry. But nobody has any right to bully you.
I'll even go so far as to say that our fights have value. Because we have come to know each other, our disagreements force us to confront our own ideas. It's too easy to think that some things shouldn't be discussed or confronted, but that just festers. Nor is it much good to just 'go somewhere else where we feel comfortable' - that creates an echo chamber. It's kind of a shock to find that Jo from Johanessburg disagrees on an issue, when we always thought Jo was such a level headed stalwart. But because we know Jo is levelheaded, it forces us to think maybe they have a point. It may not have been all laughs and snowflakes, but I think I learned something the past week or so
ReplyDeleteAnd I'd never want to become uber-sensitive in out 'tone'. This is Mothafukkin College Misery, Dammit and Fuckety Fuck!
I'm a bit mystified by all of this. Maybe I don't follow this site closely enough, but I haven't noticed an increase in personal attacks lately. However, I skip over comments from some regular commentators who have little to say that interests me. The comments I do read are quite enjoyable even if I don't agree.
ReplyDeleteMy wife (a professor also) thinks this is nuts, but I come to this site for comfort. It puts me at an eerie ease to see the many who experience the same misery that I experience. I feel better about The Job after reading this site's posts and comments. I'd hate for this site to become sanitized and sterile.
This site has attitude. It is crisp and hard-edged. It isn't filled with the pablum of student success at the expense of academic expertise. It stands in direct opposition to those students, administrators, and faculty who want to make college into Barney and Friends. I need College Misery in order to keep the little sanity I have left.
I heartily agree, hyperbolic-paraboloid. College Misery keeps me sane.
ReplyDeleteFor me, CM acts as a proxy for my office mate -- someone I can turn to and say, "Is it just me?"
ReplyDeleteCollege Misery keeps me sane and makes me crazy. I've found that is just like the faculty discussion board at my college. Venting. Helpful hints. Venting. AND colleagues attacking one another! Colleagues? I never read the arguments until I found myself at the center of a round of bullying. Colleagues we are.
ReplyDeleteIt's great to vent and to have someone actually "listen". Misery indeed loves company. My older student mentioned in the post on lifelong learning emailed me today. "Who knows, maybe before they finally throw dirt on me, I will once again take a class with you. -- Until then, David, keep up the excellent job the Lord has given you." I usually cringe at any mention of god or religion, roll my eyes, and try to bite my tongue. But, not today. This student has the most positive attitude I have ever seen. I hope it's contagious.
Really? You got all those emails as a result of the debates of the past few days.
ReplyDeleteI just went back and read the comments for the past few days, in particular the ones that got people so riled up, and all I have to say is: my goodness, people around here need to develop thicker skins.
While there were clearly some impassioned people in those debates, and some folk may have been a little intemperate on occasions, the level of hostility pales in comparison to other places I hang out on the internet. If you can't cope with what's been posted here recently, maybe you need to plop yourself down in front of the TV and just watch "My Little Pony" for a living.
For the people who are all upset about this, let me ask you something: If someone at a conference, or in a book review or a department seminar, criticizes one of you arguments or takes issue with one of your conclusions, do you thrown down your glasses and storm out of the room crying? We're academics, for God's sake; we're supposed to be able to deal with differences of opinion—even heated and contentious ones—without turning into a bunch of bawling babies.
I say all this as someone who hasn't even weighed in on the more controversial topics of the past week. I don't have a particular argument to make, and I'm not pushing the barrow for any "side" in any of the debates. I'm just amazed that so many people can't handle the (relatively tame) atmosphere around here.
Just because this is a blog where we come to blow off steam, and is also a place where a certain amount of camaraderie and goodwill has developed, doesn't mean that we always need to agree with one another, and it doesn't mean that we're all always going to get along. Families, as Stella notes in her post, can get far worse than this, and yet they still manage to sit down and have dinner or watch TV together. I don't think the moderators around here should be responsible for wagging the finger at everyone who makes a slightly intemperate comment, and nor should they have to spend hours a day protecting prof-flakes who apparently have never had a real-world discussion before.
Get over it, people.
Ditto.
DeleteI agree that thicker skin is helpful but on the flip side, some of us who post often and talk in the comments section really do build relationships with others here. It makes me feel comfortable being honest and up front about some topics. There's no need to pussyfoot around with friends. I can see how others might instead feel that friends deserve the utmost respect when debating topics and get their feelings hurt when thing get out of hand.
DeleteIf we didn't know each other or share any bonds, this would be a madhouse, and not in a good way.
Count me as another one who headed for the closet (or, actually, made a conscious decision to go focus on a combination of grading and squeezing a few hours of recreation, including a very nice dinner with real-life friends, out of the last days of spring break), after expressing my own pretty strong opinion (perhaps at least once too often). I'm not sure what to make of the whole thing. I was surprised how personal some of the comments got. And I realize why it hit very close to home for some people, and can appreciate the need to take a break from the blog, or at least the thread. I'm very unhappy to hear we've lost longtime members over a thread (or series of threads) on a subject that is, really, pretty tangential to the main focus of the blog (though not so tangential that I see any problem with it being here). I don't like to see any of the voices here lost, or even temporarily silenced.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure about this, but my instinct is that more of us are more likely to see the gray areas, and so cut each other some slack, when we're discussing territory that most of us share: the classroom, the snowflake-infested email inbox, the department/committee meeting, the troublesome administrator. This particular topic seems to have evoked an especially wide variety of responses (and responses to others' responses), from an especially wide variety of view/standpoints, perhaps with less common territory among us (one dimension of that Venn diagram).
I'm still mulling over the whole thing, from questions of whether and in what areas of their lives people really do mature during their late teens and twenties (thoughts I'll keep to myself, or at least not express here; for what it's worth, I found the thread thought-provoking, even if it stopped feeling like a safe or productive place to think out loud/in writing), to how we do and should interact here. On the latter, I'm inclined to agree that the blog is, to some extent, going to have a mind of its own; expecting Fab or Cal or anyone else to shape the discourse beyond setting and enforcing some broad boundaries strikes me as unrealistic. So is expecting anyone to monitor the site 24/7. Most of the shaping of the conversation (both content and tone) is really up to us. My personal approach is to ignore or withdraw from conversations I find less interesting or disturbing in some way, and to try to create the kind of content and comments I'd like to see (give or take a tendency to ramble off into my own thoughts). Maybe that's wise; maybe that's cowardly, at least at times. Obviously we all have to choose our own approaches.
In short, I'm not feeling all that absolutely sure of anything, except that I do very much appreciate this place, and Fab and Cal and others for making it possible, and everybody (well, almost everybody) who participates and has participated, even when we get fractious with each other. And I don't want to lose any of the participants in the conversation, even (perhaps especially) those with whom I sometimes disagree.
Oh, and I like the duck. The duck is clearly very important, and useful. Long live the duck.
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DeleteI don't doubt Fab at all, but it seems so odd to me that someone would give up posting rights and leave the page over what went on yesterday. I see Bubba's still here, and Ben; they took the worst of the abuse? I see Cassandra.
ReplyDeleteWas it a bluff? Did anyone leave?
I am very sorry to say that Barb from Batavia has left the page. She has been a longtime member of the CM community and I hate that the environment I created and watched over made her leave.
ReplyDeleteIf she's still reading, please accept my apologies.
The RGM
While I'm saddened that Barb from Batavia chose to leave CM, I will not let you take the blame for it. You didn't create an environment that "made her leave"; you've helped to maintain a community, period. The environment here is what it is. Barb's choice is what it is. In many ways, they have nothing to do with you.
DeleteWhat you are responsible for is keeping this place running. Without CM--even with its little explosions like the one over the weekend--I would go absolutely insane. I haven't posted as much this academic year as I have in the past, but I'm here several times each week finding solace in the shared misery. I know I am not alone.
You cannot blame yourself. Barb's reaction to the ongoing conversation was her reaction. Her decision to leave was hers alone. Now forgive yourself and learn to get past it--because it really has nothing to do with you.
This makes me SICK. Seriously. Is this what the people who are conflict averse want? That anyone who gets into a disagreement feels like he or she has to leave?
ReplyDeleteBarb, if you are reading, get in touch via my profile.
What hooked me on rys: http://rateyourstudents.blogspot.com/2006/12/call-to-action-not-in-my-class_3064.html
ReplyDeleteAfter finding rys and Not in My Class, I was hooked. HOOKED. There is not one person on rys or cm who has not helped me. Contingent Cassandra helped me deal with a suicidal student. Just allowing me to vent when I feel I cannot teach another class, gave me the stamina to walk into class the next day. When Barb lost her mojo, I knew I was not alone. Thank you, all for a great site.
David, your comments are appreciated as well. Thanks for being a part of CM.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI also want to thank everyone who regularly contributes to this blog. I've been lurking for a long time and finally decided to start commenting. I hope I won't increase everyone's misery in the process...
ReplyDeleteWelcome Ursula! A great big Yaro hug for you!
ReplyDeleteI am saddened by Barb's decision to leave, but it was her decision. I missed the debate in real time and read through the whole thing yesterday. It was heated and many people expressed personal, emotional opinions. That such open debate happened here, in what I consider to be a safe place, is something for which I am profoundly grateful.
ReplyDeleteWhen heated open debate takes place, some people may feel wounded. Some people--like Barb--choose to withdraw. Others do not withdraw. That's what happens. There is nothing wrong with the process and no one can control anyone's reaction to the process but their own.
We often refer to things outside of academia as "the real world," but this is as real as anything else to many of us. Here, just as in the everyday solid molecular world, we all encounter opinions and emotions that differ from ours. Painful as it is to think that someone is taking something personally (or hurling something personally), there's no avoiding it.
I'm staying. I hope that people who have vacated will return at some point, but if they don't, that's their choice. We have to keep it moving, folks.
Not to get all up in your face, but this is exactly the kind of comment I was referring to in the other thread when I said people get encouraged to leave if they have a disagreement.
DeleteThat's not what I'm reading, WL. Unless I missed something, nobody "encouraged" Barb to leave, and if they did:
DeleteBarb, please come back!
My biases are showing, but places like this seem relatively safe for thin-skinned individuals. For one thing, it's all anonymous, and, obviously, in your face is something a whole lot different than face to face.
OTOH, I have a layperson's interest in stuff like quantum mechanics and cosmology. A few weeks ago, I went to a website where anybody can ask science questions--from basic stuff to the real brain twisters. When I asked my questions--which, of course I thought were intelligent ones which captured some of what I'd just read--I got flamed: "Don't waste our time by asking such idiotic questions. If you wanna learn about quantum physics then go to school and study it."
So I kinda know how Barb must feel.
WhatLadder, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I don't see how what I wrote today can be construed as encouraging anyone to leave if he or she has a disagreement here with anyone else. I'm not Hiram--and he is wonderful--but I'm baffled.
DeleteI'm saddened that Barb left and I would rather that she stay, but she left of her own accord. I've been flamed in other forums and have chosen not to return to some of them--but that is my decision. I don't blame the forum for how I react to it.
Yes, yes, I understand you are grieved by anyone disagreeing with you, and it's better if people who are unpleasant go away so you don't have to deal with them.
ReplyDeleteWhatLadder, if you are replying to my post, I think you are misreading what I am saying. I am not grieved by anyone disagreeing with me; in fact, I welcome debate and am glad to see topics debated here in what I consider to be a fairly safe place.
ReplyDeleteI also do not want people to leave who disagree with me. (And, for the record, I didn't weigh in on the original conversation that escalated and resulted in Barb's departure.) I don't want Barb to leave--at all. I am genuinely saddened by her departure.
All I'm saying is that, ultimately, how Barb reacted was her reaction. As I said, I have been flamed before in other forums and have decided not to return to them, and I live with that as my choice, my reaction to those forums. Do I think those who upset me were unpleasant people? In my opinion, yes. Were my feelings hurt? In some cases, yes. After some distance, do I think that I could have over-reacted or misinterpreted anything said to me because I was emotionally involved in a heated debate? In some cases, yes; in others, I don't think so. My choice in the end was to avoid places where I thought there was genuine negativity with malicious intent. I didn't see that in the debate that took place here, but if that's how Barb took it, that's how she took it.
I will miss Barb's contributions and I hope that she decides to return after some time has passed and whatever wounds she's suffered have healed. I'm not being flippant here nor am I trivializing what she felt.
The only unpleasant people that I wish to go away are the adminflakes at my miserable job and some of the scarier and/or whinier snowflakes.