On the commentary for this article on the difficulty even wealthy families are having paying for college today, one person commented:"I get a lot of shit because I take out the maximum amount of loans I can take out. But dude, I take eight classes and I can't afford housing. I work, but what I earn just barely covers my food and transportation costs. If I didn't take out loans, I wouldn't be able to pay my rent.
And yet every time it's brought up in a conversation, people tell me I'm being really stupid about taking out loans. But what they don't get is that the options aren't "Go to school without taking out loans" and "Go to school with taking loans," the options are "Go to school and take out loans," or "Don't go to school."
And then a there are the people who say, "Okay, go to school, but don't go to graduate school; it's stupid." And I say, "Yeah, but I want to be a professor. You HAVE to go to graduate school to be a professor."
And they're just like, "You don't make a return on graduate schools."
Wtf?"
CMers, what would you say to this misguided young person?
I do not have an account to comment on Gawker (and their comments system is crappy as hell so why bother) but I do have some advice for this complainer.
Dear Gawker-er, your friends are right. You don't make a return on graduate schools. If you go to graduate school, go only to a school that offers full funding. That's probably about 3% of grad schools. If you go to the remaining 97%, you are buying into a decade or more of debt-ridden misery without any chance of being hired.
Let's go beyond this. Regardless of how you fund your education, you are choosing to go into a glutted market. You are spending probably 10-12 years going from high school to PhD and when you get out, no one will touch you because if they touch you then they will have to touch the hundreds of identical YOUs out there on the market. Chances are, you won't be the shining star you think you are. You will be one of the thousands of mediocre researchers who can't teach their way out of a paper bag.
The "WTF" that so eloquently concludes your comment should be directed at yourself. Why do you want to become a professor? Do you have any idea what professors do with their time? They do not sit idly in a comfy armchair reading Foucault and thinking deeply about how to apply his ideas to the current state of -- I don't know -- cinema politics today. They are not praised and admired and exploding with inspiration. No, they spend all their time frantically putting together new lectures while filling in for Colleague Dumbass and reviewing the latest research less out of interest and more out of fear that after 8 years' work they will be denied tenure or sabbatical or fellowship, so they write more articles and books to be presented at conferences in Montana or rural Alabama in front of boring or socially awkward colleagues without any decent alcohol. (caveat: when the alcohol is good, these conferences can actually be pretty damn awesome, but don't tell Gawker-er that)
Being a professor is about fear and loathing. Fear of losing your funding or your job or your freedom, and loathing those students, administrators, parents, government officials, and journalists who have no idea what a professorship is really all about.
I have friends who are like you, Gawker-er. Friends who took out the maximum amount of loans every year because they "had to." I have four friends who maxed out their lifetime loan amounts. They owe $138,000 on a Humanities PhD. They haven't gotten T/T jobs. They eek out an existence and stupidly avoid going into other areas of work. I love them but they need to quit. I see my friends in you. They made bad decisions.
If I were hiring, I would look at that debt and declare the person to be too stupid to work as a teacher. I look at my friends and I gawk at them, the way I gawk at you, oh Gawker-er. You are an idiot. WTF indeed. You SHOULD get a lot of shit. From everyone. From me.
The key to your problems lies in this phrase: "Yeah, but I want to be a Professor...." WANT, love, want. We can't always get what we want. I want loads of things, but I am not willing to sacrifice my life and well-being and good credit score for those wants. Yet that is precisely what you are doing, right now, and it's a shit decision.
Stop being such an idiot. It is unbecoming.
And this has been: Unsolicited Advice to a Gawker Commentator. What unsolicited advice do you have for this snowflake?
My advice? You should have gone to a more local university with a smaller price tag. You should have looked for part-time work to do while in school. You should have talked to your university about a payment plan. You should have gotten roommates and watched every single penny. You should have been buying in bulk and cooking every meal and keeping your per meal cost as close to a dollar or less as possible. (It's possible; I did it.)
ReplyDeleteBy paying less for a (most likely) state school, you could have made the shot for a more prestigious graduate school.
You should never pay for graduate school. (I did, but it was an exceptional circumstance due to a death in the family.) You should not be in love with being a professor.
Give yourself a timeline to leave the profession if you do not get the "dream job" of tenure/contract security. Set that deadline and fucking mean it.
Realize you have skills that people value outside of academia. Keep contacts outside of the academy; they will keep you sane and possibly serve as connections to employment.
Only become a professor if you love learning and you have the patience to share that love with people who resent you for having and holding others to standards.
But that kind of debt for an undergraduate degree??? NEVER carry more debt than the first year of AVERAGE salary you expect to make after you graduate.
Private universities and SLACs are an option as well if you're willing to swallow your pride and take a step down in selectivity/prestige in exchange for a good merit scholarship.
DeleteLocal is also good if you have a decent home life and can stand living at home for four more years.
I did both and have no undergrad debt. I'm now at an R1 for graduate school, so attending a lesser-known school for undergrad didn't hurt me too much.
Also, I'm fully-funded by my department and have several years of external fellowships as well, so I can now afford to live comfortably on my own. I wouldn't have pursued graduate school if this wasn't the case.
To me, taking out the max amount in loans sounds like poor planning, not dedication.
This is why I teach high school. Always knew I would, so I went to a cheap state school and then my district paid for half of my fancy masters degree. From time to time I think I might want to teach college because I used to think they got more respect from more mature students who actually want to be there... but this blog has taught me otherwise. I'm very grateful for my job security, and I do not take it for granted.
DeleteSeconding Matilda. My SLAC cost much less than the local state university in my area thanks to scholarships. And now I attend an R1 for grad school--not in spite of, but probably because of, my small private-school education. There's no way I would have gotten the assistance I needed to develop a writing sample at the massive public uni where I grew up.
DeleteNo loans here. No delusions, either. I knew what I was getting myself into when I went to grad school. I wouldn't have signed onto this if I wasn't willing to teach a 5/5/5 load at a branch campus in North Dakota.
Welcome, Teacher Misery! Thought you might be hanging about...
DeleteBeen enjoying the K-12 misery at your place. Our snowflakes are your fault, too.
Thank you for the support ahistoricality! It's a little lonely on my site right now, with the serious lack of writers... but as soon as the school year starts I'll be doing some recruiting.
DeleteGee, Monkey... why do I think you're actually writing this slightly-too-nasty letter to yourself?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure. I don't have any debt.
DeleteAh, but my ex had a similar approach to loans -- he called it "free money." Perhaps that's what you are picking up on?
DeleteSadieWay,
ReplyDeleteYou were wronged insofar as you made it this far with an optimistic view of your future. The acting principle on the earth for the past billion years has been the struggle for existence (Darwin, C., 1859). The struggle for existence is a result of reproductive capacity exceeding the carrying capacity for an ecological niche. There are more of you than we need to put to work. Options include
1. Survive (by fang and claw if necessary)
2. Die.
Sorry no one told you. Best of luck!
Join the Army, get the GI Bill. It's fucking easy. I did it. Man or woman the fuck up, and those four years on the military will be great for you. They go by fast and you get to experience a whole bunch of stuff. If you're afraid of getting killed, join the navy. stop being a pussy and stop whining.
ReplyDeleteNo less than John McCain said that he knew plenty of people who didn't like the military, but all of them admitted it was a maturing experience.
DeleteConsider, however, John McCain's navy experience.
Yep, and yep. Uncle Sam did very well by me: I grossed $40,000 over and above my pay and allowances for a four-year enlistment.
DeleteI don't regret my time in the service at all.
By the way, I don't think you'll do quite that well now, but I got my $12K in student loans repaid, an $8K enlistment bonus, and $20K Army College Fund that helped me support a family in graduate school.
DeleteMy niece just enlisted to be a medic (basically an EMT) and she got $58k for tuition and fees. The post 9/11 GI bill is very generous. And folks can even join the reserves and play at being a soldier...instead of drinking one weekend, they could go to drill. Really, most undergrads, me included at the time, could use 4 years to mature before they hit campus. I stayed in the military and got all my degrees paid for...it was a rough deal having to study for my PHD as an active duty officer. If you're willing to put up with some shit, you'll be rewarded for. No such thing as a free lunch, tho.
DeleteMy last two years of undergraduate were covered by the post 9/11 GI bill through my father being able to allocate his benefits to me - it helped me wipe my loan debt, get a car, and focus on my work so I could get to grad school. The GI bill - not just good for veterans, but their children as well.
DeleteBefore we all break into a rousing chorus of "Battle Hymn of the Republic," someone needs to say that while military service may seem a good deal for someone with far too much of a student loan debt, I sincerely hope your niece doesn't come home in a box. If she does, I hope it's for something worthwhile, such as defending American freedom, and not for padding Dick Cheney's bottom line. To paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut in "Slaughterhouse Five," you old soldiers are making going to war look like so much fun, there's very little to prevent us from hurrying up and having another one. A naval nuclear exchange that starts over keeping the Strait of Hormuz open, perhaps?
DeleteEvery twenty years or so, a bunch of dumb kids come along. An alert politician can dress them up in spiffy uniforms and fire them up with pep talks, and by the time the kids find out what they've gotten into is -really- like, it's too late. Positively convenient for the handlers, no?
I am proud of my service in the U.S. Navy. I got to run a nuclear reactor on an attack submarine, which might be exactly the type of vessel that prevents an Iranian naval nuclear attack on the Northeast Corridor of the U.S.A. (I think that would be much easier for them than lobbing a nuke halfway around the world, and they've said as much in public.) I still won't recommend students to go into the military, even horribly immature ones who could profit mightily from the discipline alone. This is because, again to paraphrase Vonnegut, these days they get treated far too much like toys a rich kid got for Christmas.
Again: consider John McCain's military experience. Don't forget the stint in the Hanoi Hilton.
Frod., so who should serve in this military of ours? Just PWT from Appalachia, the army of Juan, and black kids from Detroit? The military has lots of problems, God knows. I spent 20 years in, and saw several of my troopers come home in boxes and worse (maimed both mentally and physically), but the reality is that we are going to have a military even after the Dark Prince finally dies (can't happen soon enough IMHO), and it does offer a means for those not of the Lucky Sperm Club to get and education paid for. Indeed, one of the greatest safeguards of our republic is the concept of the citizen-soldier. ROTC is needed to counter the mutants USMA, USAFA, USNA produces. The USMC does a wonderful job of building citizens (rapists on Okinawa aside). Realize the USMC needs techs as much as canon fodder,and it only allows about 25% of first-term marines to reenlist for a second tour...the rest are expected to go forth and be good citizens. OCS/OTS provides a great opportunity for poor kids who have no chance of getting an education without joining the military and then wanting to become an officer becoming one.
DeleteMy iPad was fubar. Anyway, I continue: the kid asked how to get college paid for. Telling him/her the GI Bill is a way is not blindly waving the flag. Yup, terrible shit can happen to you when you put on the uniform. You might be asked to do terrible things. The moral and physical courage you develop through those experiences will serve you a lot better
DeleteWTF! Goddamn iPad. Any way, courage will serve you a lot better than any lecture on bullshit identity theory or some other silliness. Thank God my daughter does t have to serve in the military because I have worked my way, thanks in large part to my military service (I'm a prof now because I can afford to be; I sold my consulting business that I formed after leaving the service, and now can teach and write and not worry about thanks to that pay day coupled with a decent pension and my wife's income). That said, daughter understands the cocnep
DeleteJesus! Concept of service and has chosen a career whee she can serve others as well as herself. Knee jerk anti military reactions aren't going to help anyone. And McCain's experience was exceptional, certainly not the norm, of USN service. If he had benn a SWO, or an E-4 working the carrier deck, he would have never become a hero. By the way, I've met John McCain, and he's a great guy and a real hero. I proudly voted for him, despite his terrible choice of Sexy Sarah. Note I just got my Vets for Obama sticker. I tell you and tge readers all this to show how really complicated it all is. Now I need to go clean some chicken coops. No shit, on several levels. :)
DeleteDon't forget that serving in the U.S. military is some of the best management training on the planet. When I see what sometimes passes for this in the business school, I shake my head.
DeleteSo, who should serve in this military of ours? Volunteers, with their eyes wide open, I say. You need not explain the concept of service to me: all men in my family serve in the U.S. military, although I'm still the only Navy vet.
As far as eyes being wide open goes too, this student worries me with the statement, "I want to be a professor." This student needs to know a -lot- more about becoming a professor.
If time permits, I may write more later today. If it doesn't, I recommend this student read "A Ph.D. Is Not Enough," by Peter Feibelman. Although this book is for science Ph.D.s, the parts on faculty jobs are worthwhile for people interested in faculty jobs outside the sciences, too.
P.S. Feed them a few beers, and Marines smile and laugh like everyone else.
DeleteMakes me shake my head at the sheer stupidity of some. I took out student loans for my master's and it was under $5,000 because I was determined not to go far into the hole.....and considering what i make as an adjunct, let's just say I'm really glad it's so little. I may be able to pay it back in a few years!!!!
ReplyDeleteLooks like the other Gawkeristas are already telling Gawker-er just what you said. Somehow I can't dump too harshly on Gawker-er, since I pretty much decided in undergrad that I wanted to be a prof, and it seems a bit unfair to dump on them for that.
ReplyDeleteGawker-er's delusions about 'what a professor makes' seem a bit delusional though. And in STEMs, the first indication of "are you going to make it as a prof?" is "can you get a scholarship/stipend for grad school?" So going into debt for grad school is pretty hopeless.
Your response does strike me as a bit harsh. I would say to this person, if you really want to be a professor, and you know what that means, then by all means go to grad school. But don't go to a grad school that makes you pay: if they're not giving you an assistantship with a waiver and some research or teaching experience, plus a stipend, then do not go there.
ReplyDeleteAs far as "fear and loathing." No. Being a professor has unique and sometimes very painful frustrations, but Jesus, we're not working on oil rigs. I rather like my job. I even like 90% or more of my students. So -- seriously -- what are we saying? "Give up your dreams cause my life sucks?" Bleh.
I was bitching the commentator out. Did you want me to point out the moments -- weekly -- when I feel exhilarated from how much I love my job? This is the Misery!
DeleteFair enough. I suppose it just hit my "you suck for going to graduate school" nerve. I have relatives who seem to think I'm still unemployed and that going to grad school was stupid.
DeleteSay, I did have an idea about this today. If you are so committed to your dream of becoming a professor that you are willing to risk life, limb, and sanity by getting student loan relief from serving in the military, or by doing something else equally noble and potentially dangerous such as teaching in a high-poverty school, I say what the heck: go for your dream.
ReplyDelete(I served in the U.S. Navy, and also drove taxis in Chicago. I certainly do not recommend that anyone drive taxis in Chicago: it was far too dangerous. It made operating a nuclear reactor on a submarine look positively staid. More than once, I've been told, "Relatively few professors have colorful stories like that...")
Remember, however, that it will be an uphill fight whatever you do. These days, you are unlikely to get a tenure-track professorship just like that upon completing your Ph.D., unless you win the Nobel Prize while still in grad school. Over 3/4 of university faculty positions are contingent these days, and this trend is getting worse all the time. Of course, if anything that I can say can dampen your dream, that's not good: only fanatics need apply here. But ordinary mortals like me do make it, sometimes. Four rules I suggest you follow are:
(1) Don't take out more student loans than you will make in the year immediately after you finish your Ph.D.
(2) Think twice about going to grad school anywhere that won't pay your way. If they won't, it may be that they don't think you'll make it, or it may indicate a dysfunctional grad program. Neither are good for you. Exceptions to this do exist, but they're fairly rare. I just helped place a student in a nuclear engineering program where all but the most exceptional of their first-year grad students pay $25k for the year. They can get away with this, since an entry-level engineer at a commercial nuclear power plant makes $65-80k. A postdoc developing fusion energy in academia, like my former student wants to do, makes only about $40k, but he could take a Plan B as an entry-level engineer at a commercial nuclear power plant.
(3) At age 30, look at your publications list. These may well be among the best publications you will ever produce. Are they good enough to make continuing worthwhile?
(4) At age 35, if you're not yet on the tenure track, start to implement Plan B.
You do have a Plan B, I trust?
A problem with being a fanatic is that it can make you vulnerable to exploitation by unscrupulous bosses. Having a cool career can involve having more than one terrible job. Look at what actors and musicians put up with.
YES to Frod's numbers. If they don't want to pay for you to go to grad school in the humanities, they don't want you (they just want your cash to fund the people they do want). Assuming you go straight from undergrad, you should be on the tenure track by age 35, or quit. Those years before 35 go fast, and the 40s look pretty grim without job security, a retirement plan of some kind, and the ability to be in some kind of family formation.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am currently reaping the post 9/11 GI Bill benefits, I cannot unconditionally recommend it as a goal of military service. Chief among the reasons is that the purpose of the military is to kill people. True, not all specific jobs in the military ask you to prepare to kill a fellow human being, but many do, and those that don't exist to support others whose task it is to kill.
ReplyDeleteI will not tell someone they should pay for school by killing people.
The risk of dying, studied as a whole, is fairly low. Deaths per 100k active duty military due to combat peaked near 53 in 2007, below the 60-ish due to combined accidents in the 80s[1], and well below the 72 rider deaths per 100k registered motorcycles in 2006[2]. Teen driving is about twice as safe, with 20-something deaths per 100k teens for the mid-00s[3]. Then again, all students considering grad school have been teens, not all of them have been in the military or ridden motorcycles.
There are plenty of good reasons to choose to join the military, and much worthwhile advice about how to go about it, depending on one's desires. But I cannot recommend joining solely for the purpose of paying for education.
[1] https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xhtml
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety
[3] http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/?q=node/176