I would like to meet you this Tuesday at 10:15 to talk about my course grade and ways to improve my Hamster Wrangling skills. I have received A's in all of my other rodent classes at Flyover State and I hope to at least receive an A- in this course, but I want to receive an A I am a straight A honors student and it is very upsetting to me that I have a B+ in this class, I would like the opportunity to discuss ways to practice Rodent Taming and to go over the new wrangling tactics we learned.
I am very bad at stressing myself out and being hard on myself so I will do anything to get an A.
I look forward to talking with you,
Clueless Clair
Now, aside from the daunting "I will do anything to get an A" -- I will make sure the door is open and there's someone close by -- there is an issue of reality check. Open the advising system and, tada, Clair has nine B's, three C's and two A's. So, no surprise, same as every other student, she's a lying liar who lies.
Q: Now, should I bring this to the interview and watch her try to bullshit herself deeper, or just let it pass?
Again, like cheating or plagiarism, I regard lying from a student as a personal affront. So, the student thought I was stupid enough to fall for their deception, did they? Well, I'm not that stupid.
ReplyDeleteSometimes, though, it helps not to be too blatant about calling them on their nonsense. It may help for you to casually remark, with a paper copy of your student's transcript in your hand and of course the door open and someone nearby, "I see, nine Bs, three Cs and two As."
I became cautious about this since I had a non-traditional student who is a lawyer. He told me he had a C in a class that was a prerequisite to the class he wanted to take from me. If there's anything that drives me batshit loco, it's when a student lies to me when they don't even have to: I hadn't even asked him what he got in that class, but when I checked his transcript, sure enough, he had a W, never having completed the class.
But, he's a lawyer. He constantly tried to intimidate our wonderful department secretary by reminding her of that. (Anyone who treats our wonderful secretary in this way deserves to be shoved head downward into a special circle of hell.) So, rather than accusing him of lying, I just told him that I couldn't use a student who can't tell the difference between a C and a W. It got the point across.
When she comes to see you, I think you should, in the name of being all concerned and wanting to help her and understand her and see what hard classes she has taken and done so well in, call up her transcript right in front of her, and then pretend it's the first time you are seeing it. "Oh my God, could the registrar have this all wrong? How on earth could that have happened? You better get down there right away and get this all straightened out!"
ReplyDeleteAh, it makes me smile,to imagine it. If you don't think she'd let you actually finish calling up said transcript, then just print it out ahead of time, and proceed as if she never claimed all As, talking about how, like this class there on her transcript, that one in Rodent Studies where she got a C, your class is very intense, and etc. That way, you don't have to have the discussion about why she lied (which can't possibly go well). You'll just both know she got busted.
I agree with the second approach -- printed transcript, clearly pulled from a system to which you have legit access. Students only lie about their past grades because they assume we can't confirm them for ourselves. This should at least make her think twice about pulling this stunt again.
DeleteThis lie is such an odd variation on peer pressure, isn't it? It reads like a weird attempt to drag professors into the same social circle as 20-year-olds. "All the OTHER proffies give me A's. Why don't YOU?? You must be the UNCOOL proffie. I always suspected..."
I like calling her out by feigning concern over a registrar error. Dig the knife in a little deeper by emailing her a few weeks later, saying that you're still concerned and offer to help in way you can.
DeleteI was going to suggest a variation of this, which is asking her about her study methods in these other classes she got an "A" in. Be all cheerleadery like "If you got an A in Rodent Studies 101, you should have all the skills you need for this class. You just need to do some revision".
DeleteThis won't make her admit, but it will make her squirm.
I had a student once tell me that she was a political refugee from Haiti who would be deported if she failed my class, and then she'd get killed the minute she set foot back in her old country. She was very convincing. Still, I thought to myself, if her LIFE WAS ON THE LINE, why wouldn't she come to class? So I did fail her, and then I saw her around campus for the next five years or so, during which time she failed many a class. Funny thing was, she smiled at me real big, as if she did not remember her lie.
ReplyDeleteAnother student told me she was pregnant, and was going to keep the baby, and that was why I should give her a W instead of the F she had earned. She was just so stressed out even thinking about it that she just stopped being able to hand in work. We had a long talk about the coming baby, names she had picked out, her concerns about what her family was going to say. She had me kind of concerned about her father's possibly violent reaction.
Summer went by. The next semester, I saw her, clearly not pregnant. I was worried---she had been so happy about that baby, and yet so worried about her family's reaction. We had seemed to make a connection. So I asked her how everything was going---was everything all right? She looked at me blankly---like I was crazy. I wondered if it was the same person "Lying Lila?" I asked---"it is you isn't it?" "Yes....?" she blankly answered. "So, all that stress from last semester, is that all better now?" I asked. She brightened. "Oh! that! Yes, my grandma's all better now!"
I, too, had a student try that refugee lie on me. I asked her for documentation. She dropped the class, but she's still on campus three years later, pulling a 1.8 gpa.
DeleteI've also had a student lie about being raped by someone in the class so she could switch to another section. Turned out it was a GF/BF fight. They're getting married this Christmas. Good luck to HIM!
Just had the refugee story Monday. He failed Rodent Administration, having only answered half of the questions on the exam. I had decided to put him on the spot - Ok, Juan, have a seat. Here's two questions from the exam. Just answer them right now. You probably didn't have enough time, what with not speaking the language and all.
DeleteTo my surprise, Juan sat down and actually answered the two questions I chose from the exam that he had not answered. So I passed him. A good show is always worth something.
I love that they think that lying about their grades in past classes will pressure us into GIVING them an A in our classes. *smh.
ReplyDeleteWhy do they lie? Why do they lie when they don't even need to? Why? Is it that they've grown up in a culture where everyone lies (sitcoms, politicians, banks, etc.)? Is it that lies have worked for them in the past, so they got rewarded for it?
Oh, and in situations like this, I, too, have feigned concern that the Registrar has entered the wrong information, and have asked the student to come with me to check with them since she is certain she is an A student. I can milk it when I need to make a point.
ReplyDeleteDo you have a blowtorch you can use on this student?
ReplyDeletePrint out the transcript and only use it to shut her down if she tries to use it as leverage that you're teaching badly (which is really the implication here).
ReplyDeleteWhy stress yourself out and provoke her breakdown? Unless you're one of those people who gets turned on by tears, just focus on helping her as best you can (if that's even possible).
BTW: some wisdom from Judge Judy --
Q: How do you know when a teenager is lying?
.
.
.
A: Their lips are moving....
As with "teenager" (in general), so with "college student."
As long as you have legitimate access to transcripts (I don't; at least I don't think so), I'd consider printing out a copy and calling her on it, probably in a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger way. I might also say that she seems to be under a lot of self-imposed pressure, and suggest a visit to the counseling center (which might be a bit passive-aggressive, but also makes sense, and usefully reframes her "I've got to get an A/A- in this class/I'm an A student" attitude from positive/motivational self-talk -- which I suspect she thinks it is -- to a sign of a potential problem -- which it is).
ReplyDeleteThe downside is that if she's a narcissist (or something else pathological or semi-pathological) who genuinely believes the alternative history she's constructed in her head (some do), you may become the focal point for the shame, anger, etc. she would otherwise project inward (and cover up with the stories she begins to believe herself). That could be a major time- and energy-suck.
If you're in a vulnerable position (i.e. untenured), or just reluctant to get caught up in this student's psychological problems, I'd suggest forwarding the email and transcript copy to someone relevant -- your chair, the Dean of Students, and/or the counseling center -- and taking their advice for dealing with the situation. In the meantime, be helpful about how she can improve her work in your class, but carefully non-specific about the grades that could result, because it's entirely possible that her tenuous grasp on the truth may lead her to hear you saying things you didn't. You can hardly refuse to see her in office hours if she asks, but email might be a better way to deal with her, since it leaves a written trail. Since you're of different genders, I'd definitely say that the "I'll do anything" line is enough to invite eavesdropping by, or even the presence of, a colleague you trust. Depending on local law, tape-recording might be another option.
P.S. My guess at the additional background behind the situation, based on personal experience teaching humanities courses that some students feel should be easy As: she's failing or nearly-failing some other class that she doesn't think she can master no matter how hard she tries, and she needs the A in your class to keep her GPA high enough to keep her scholarship, or stay off academic probation, or get into a particular program (nursing/other health science, perhaps?), or participate in some activity that is important to her (sports, sorority, etc.). That might be another reason to invoke whatever student-support services exist, since, if she's earning a B+ in your class, the real academic problem, if there is one, lies elsewhere.
blogger is fighting with me...
ReplyDeleteHave it up on the monitor ready to go before she arrives. Don't bother telling her or hiding it etiher way. Just have it ready to go so she can't anticipate it and tap on the keyboard while saying you want to check her prerequisites to see if it explains her unexpected trouble in your class. Then say "You told me you were a straight A student, but that is not the case. You didn't need to say that. First of all, everybody wants an A. It can be assumed you
want' and A. Secondly, your prior record has no bearing on the quality of the work you are submitting in this course. I would be no less inclined to help you right now if you had a 1.3 than a 4.0. I would be no less likely to record a fairly determined C- to someone with straight As than to someone with straight Ds. If you would sincerely like some guidance, I can help you, regardless of these non-A grades I see recorded on your transcript." if she's still listening and hasn't interupted, glazed over, or looked at her phone, give her two specific things to change or try and tell her to come back for another appointment in two weeks with evidence that she's implemented the suggestions.
This is the best advice yet.
DeleteThis is the best advice yet.
DeleteUnless you made a grading error, I would tell her that "I am sorry, but this is what you earned based on the points in the class and your performance." Let her stew in reality. I have to admit, this is less clever than pulling up the transcript and feigning concern that the Registrar had made a mistake. That is a brilliant idea.
ReplyDeleteBruce M. Dan
I just gave an exam. I don't give a review sheet, not really. I give the question bank. It is on the large side. There is a lot they need to know. BUT, it is stuff we have been talking about for 5 weeks. Non stop. And doing homework assignment on these topics, and writing an essay on these topics. So anyway, the exam itself can't be all those questions----just some of them, of course. Many students fail. See, because this exam requires them to do things like know, really know, the story line and complexities of eight short stories. They have to be able to use the vocabulary intelligently. They have to find contextual examples----and they are not even given the short stories!!!! Or their notes!!!!! Nothing but their minds, such as they are. Never mind that next to each question in the question bank, I actually write the story for which I will be asking them to think about that concept. I make it easy to pass.
DeleteIN fact, I always get a few 100s. And lots of high As. And many, many low Fs.
And then the cries and complaints come in "I NEVER EVER EVER FAILED ANYTHING and blah blah blah." "Until now." I say. I just had the beginning of it, with a young lady coming up to me after the exam. "I did not answer like, five of the questions. Is that going to be a problem because I never failed an exam before in my life and I STUDIED." "The questions are worth 8 points each. So I will tally up the points you earned, and we shall see."
Let her stew in reality. I like that.
Students occasionally try to pull the A-student thing on me too, and I'm starting to think it's not really a "lie," at least not in the sense we usually use the word. Many of them really believe that they are A material. This course, that semester, the last five years, their entire average lives--that's a fluke, a momentary lapse, a confluence of unfortunate circumstances--but somehow on the inside they are A students.
ReplyDeletePlay it close to the vest. It serves you no advantage letting them know that you have a means of knowing they're BS-ing you. It'd be like playing poker and telling your opponent what their tell is.
ReplyDelete