And then one of your colleagues, a really great guy, a sweet guy, a guy who'd help you out of a jam, imagine that guy starts to date a grad students SORTA in the department, but not really, not in the professor's classes or anything. I mean she was ONCE, but she was an undergrad, and there was no monkeying around then.
But now it's different. You like your colleague friend, you wish happiness on him.
The grad student is of age, she wears these cute capris, she's of age, she's not a child or anything. Nobody is being exploited or ruined or manipulated.
Q: Can this proffie get some nookie without it being bad?
Way I like to think of it: Proffies and students in general are different species. And bestiality is bad. Same goes for Grad Students in relation to undergrads.
ReplyDeleteYour mileage may vary.
Rishathra is only for highly ritualized situations. Like a thesis defense.
DeleteNookie is like pizza: even when it's bad, it's good.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though: different universities have widely different rules. At mine, it is not illegal for faculty to have relationships with students, IF the faculty is not in a position to write a recommendation for the student.
This rule strikes me as absurd, however. I can and have written recommendations for students outside my department. It's easy, if they did well in my general-ed courses.
This is only one reason I think that faculty having a relationship with a student is a terrible idea. Another reason is why it's a bad idea to have any kind of relationship in the workplace: what if the relationship goes sour?
Also, is it really true that no one is being exploited or ruined or manipulated? The unequal status between faculty and student makes this particularly difficult.
Also, what do you mean, "sorta" in the department? She is, or she isn't. Even if she isn't, it may not matter. Again, I've written letters of recommendations that helped math majors who weren't in my physics department.
Also, does your proffie friend have tenure? It may not matter: "moral turpitude" such as sexually harassing students is grounds for revocation of tenure at just about any university. Dating a student, even if the relationship starts out friendly, is disturbingly close to this.
It doesn't matter how cute you try to make your language. Banging students is skeevy.
ReplyDeleteBut it feels so good!
DeleteWell, I can't say it's bad because I know many academic couples with flourishing, happy marriages who met when one of them was a student and the other a professor. And not just a grad school professor. Also, I know of many academic marriages that started that way and went sour. But no more went sour than usually do.
ReplyDeleteI think the key aspect of this question is the "nookie" part. No, I don't think any professor can be "good" when they are constantly scanning the student body (undergrad or grad) for possible sexual partners. But obviously the teacher/student relationship can result in a professor and a student developing a more intimate interest in one another. In those situations the professor must always wait for the student not to be their student anymore, and must wait for the student to express explicit interest. Three close friends (all women) ended up marrying their undergrad profs. All are still married, one for nearly thirty years. In all cases the student made the advances, and was not in the professor's class at the time.
I can't really say there's anything wrong with that.
Maybe not bad, but generally improper so long as the student is still a student in that department or program. It raises the specter of favoritism: will other graduate students think that the student in question is receiving special treatment because of this status? That can be bad for moral. But that's only a general rule, I think. Regardless, the pair should be discrete while on campus--no excessive hanging out together etc. Off campus they can go at it like rabbits if they want. But all this is a general rule. I have known a couple of profs. whose spouses ended up as graduate students in their departments and I don't think there was any bad blood. But of course the spouses never took a class with the professors in question, and they generally acted in such a way that most people never suspected favoritism.
ReplyDeleteRemember the guy rule: there's no such thing as bad sex.
ReplyDeleteWhile not technically about nookie, Katie from Kalamazoo (on her "real" pseudonymous blog) is going on again at length about her student/friend, the one celebrated in this amazing post.
ReplyDeleteWhile not as breathless, Katie does manage to squeeze in a dozen references to friendship and CONVERSATION, as in having "REAL" conversations with her BFF. And it has this line: "Basically, it’s really awesome to be able to give her the benefit of knowing my take on things I experienced that she is now going through, but it’s also awesome that we have a relationship beyond that, you know?" Lucky girl!
Most of you know the blog / blogger to which I refer. This comment by Cal, who had a great deal of contact with her, will give you the background if this is all news to you.
I say all of this to address today's thirsty like this: There are lots of ways to take advantage of students. One is to collect them like sycophantic friends. One is to screw them. Both of these things are abusive.
Winston, find someone your own age. (Like you're not talking about yourself.)
I do not support the quoting of any work from this blogger unless we give it full credit. It's from Dr. Crazy's blog "Reassigned Time" at reassignedtime.wordpress.com. (Her blog provides instructions for giving credit.)
DeleteShe has assured us, and we take her at her word, that she is NOT Katie from Kalamazoo.
Sorry to be the serious old man here, but choosing to use the word nookie confuses for me what might a serious question about students and teachers. Slang from the 1920s, the word nookie for sexual intercourse comes from the slang nookie for a woman who is considered a sexual object. A teacher "getting nookie" is what Darla says: skeevy. Teachers and students "dating" is a different issue as "dating" connotes for me adults relating to each other, not a playa getting his swag on and hitting that hoo haa getting that good good with his favorite shortie.
ReplyDeleteOne comment increased my vocabulary just by 1.7%.
DeleteMy reaction is similar to Stella's: these are somewhat treacherous waters, exploitation is possible, and things could go spectacularly bad, or very well.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder what sort of grad program the student is in, since she's become a grad student at her undergrad institution: that's far more common for someone who's doing a terminal M.A. in preparation for moving on to a profession (or perhaps a Ph.D. elsewhere) than for someone who's doing a Ph.D. The relative brevity of the program, and the likelihood that it has a clear endpoint, might make the relationship less of a chance for both parties. But still, discretion (and as much confidence as possible on both sides that one is dealing with a sane, stable partner who can handle a breakup in a civilized manner) would be the better part of valor.
based solely on the details you gave, and baring any other relevant details, my initial reaction is "consenting adults, MYOB."
ReplyDeleteI've got to go with Tony Soprano on this one: Don't shit where you eat.
ReplyDeletedon't fish off the company pier??
DeleteI'm going to do with Stella and CC's view here - your buddy is on verrryyyy thin ice. Trod carefully.
ReplyDeleteThis type of stress usually isn't worth it in the end.
As a graduate student, had I found out one of my cohort was sleeping with a professor who had any connection to the department, I would have resented her/him and been a lot less inclined to help them in any way shape or fashion.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'd loose all respect for the professor. No matter what the rules said.
All's fair in love and war.
ReplyDeleteEven if there isn't a question of consent or coercion, and even if there's no possible perception of favoritism, doing this has an effect on the working environment for everyone. You've now made a professor-student hookup a real possibility in your department. Students will think twice before going to a professor's office, and will feel uncomfortable when they do.
ReplyDeleteSo my vote is, don't do it, I mean tell your "colleague" not to do it.
Well said, Frankiebow. And New England Natalie.
DeleteIn my grad department, at least five male professors were connected to at least eight female grad students in rumor or in fact (and, in one case, at the hip). The numbers don't add up because of multiple pair-ups.
All were adults, and most were single. Morale among the other women grads was low and bitter. We brought up the ethical issues to the chair. He offered one of the men early tenure. We brought it up to the accreditation visitation team. Inappropriate relationships between faculty and students were not mentioned in the report.
The current chair, a woman hired after I graduated, asked me why I don't go back to visit, since I still live nearby. I think I forgot to answer that email.