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A little background: I’m half of a relatively young academic couple in the humanities, with a spouse a few years ahead, PhD and job-wise. After bouncing around a few jobs in different locales, we finally found two jobs within reasonable commuting distance of one another—spouse at dream job at Solid State U with a cushy 2/2 and me at craptastic Urban State College 60 miles away with a 4/4 load. Urban State is not all that bad—decent colleagues, choice of any upper division courses, general freedom… The downsides are the teaching load (given the distance), the commute
, and the students. There are the occasional gem students and I’ve had the opportunity to work with them on some cool projects. I have not been miserable at Urban State and have generally been happy to have a job. I enjoy teaching and do not find it burdensome. The commute is becoming burdensome and I feel like I'm wasting my life for those 8+ hours a week-- not to mention the difficulty of balancing life here in College Town and work there in Urban Center.Enter the community college gig. I’ve got an interview for a TT position at Local CC. Of course, the load is 5/5, but with a variety of interesting courses offered for a CC. Service expectations are higher and research lower than Urban State. (Are there even research expectations? I don't know.) I suspect the students may be the same or better than Urban State, given the better quality high schools found here in College Town. Salary and benefits will be approximately the same (I believe). I am also interested in a possible future in administration (don't hate me).
Does it make any sense to leave Urban State for Local CC?? The initial downsides, I imagine, are the demotion of status (from 4-year to 2-year), the closing of future opportunities (though we don't plan on moving), and less time for research. However, I’m dreaming of a commuting-free life, time with the family, immersion in the community where I live, having another baby, etc., etc. Is anyone actually happy at a community college?
As for the interview, any tips on how to determine the quality of life for faculty?
I really appreciate your question, and understand your desire to work closer to home. I made a similar decision about 2 years ago.
ReplyDeleteEven though I thought I understood what the community college students would be like, I was not prepared. This is my own experience only, so please check with others.
But my cc students don't make college a priority. They have a ton of other things - most very valid - already going on, and skipping my class, not doing the work, and still expecting a passing grade, is second nature for them.
I mean, they only pay about 100 bucks for my class. It FEELS like it should mean very little at that rate, and that's how my students treat it.
I don't mind if they don't come or do the work, but the insane fits they throw if I suggest that somehow their actions might cause a failing grade are too much to take.
I've had students say to me, "I'll rip you on the student evals and then you'll see what it's like." And as in other posts on this page, I need these classes, and I have seen people I teach with not get re-hired when their evals (rightly or wrongly) are low.
I don't think of what I'm doing as teaching college at all. I was surprised by this, and disheartened. It's Grade 11 at best, and most of it is babysitting.
I have an uncle who has taught at a community college for about 25 years and he loves it. He makes time for research here and there, but it's because he wants to, not because he "has to." The students sometimes discourage him, but he does get a couple of gems every semester, and he focuses on them. He has been able to live a full, well-rounded life, raise 2 kids, and generally be happy. It's a different kind of academic lifestyle, but one that has worked for a number of people.
ReplyDeletehaphazardmusings nailed it. I have been at a CC for 18 years, and that is also my experience.
ReplyDeleteRoger also has some valid points - especially the "college is not my main priority" but "you better fuckin' pass me" mentality. It's easy to ignore, after you realize that it is going to happen.
It is you who decide how you feel about anything. If Roger feels that he's babysitting, then he's made that happen for himself. He has no one to blame but himself for he approaches his job.
ReplyDeleteMy stepmom, now retired, taught at a CC for many years. She was a great teacher, and really loved working with working-class students. It's not glamorous work, but it definitely accords with some people's visions. And having "a commuting-free life, time with the family, immersion in the community where I live ... another baby" sounds divine. I've given up ALL those things for my R1 job, except the time with family I can squeeze out, and am not always sure it's been the right choice.
ReplyDeleteI very briefly had to teach at a junior college and it was a miserable experience. It was not like teaching at a traditional college, and I saw very nice people who had been so worn down and burned out that they were simply coping, not doing much good for anyone.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, they seemed to have nice personal lives, but because they were on autopilot at work, just passing out tests, not engaging in the academic progress of their students because for the most part there wasn't any.
I taught at a CC and really enjoyed it until the administration and environment changed. I had fantastic colleagues who had standards and senses of humor. Even though my students were not college prepared, I found ways to work with them and was able to reach all but the hard-bitten type. I LIKED and respected my Deans and they were supportive and listened to logic on most occasions. But then things changed. Eventually, the focus was economics and retaining students at all costs. Students became "customers" and admin became their champions. Admin are now known to require grade changes for complaining students and ignore students who undermine instructors and harass other students. Mostly to avoid lawsuits. I was fortunate to be able to leave, but have had to watch my other colleagues go through lots of misery.
ReplyDeleteMy recommendation is that you thoroughly research the college where you're thinking of going and see if you can find out things like administrative support, student attitudes, fellow colleague standards. If you leave a place where you have good colleagues, interesting students, and supportive admin, you may be trading it in for lots of misery. Less commute will Never make up for a poor admin and unsupportive environment. Just be careful! Good luck.
Roger's tale should be read and heeded.
ReplyDeleteI teach at a top flight university and work in summers teaching a Masters level set of courses for community college profs who get financial bumps for going through the program.
They - without exception - yearn for a chance not to have to go back to the junior college. They are worn down to the nub by teaching, and they have gotten used to the fact that their students have 50 things ahead of "taking class" on their to do list.
Babysitting is what it is.
I agree with the sentiment that prestige and a sense of contribution must be taken from a holistic perspective focused through a personal lens.
ReplyDeleteThis makes "what have your experiences been?" type comparisons problematic.
Be that as it may, in the spirit of more food for thought ...
Chatting up one of the yungin's activity coaches recently, he let dropped that his wife teaches at our local CC while she finishes her MASTER'S degree.
I generally try to avoid making generalizations, but that scares the crap out of me.
I can't speak for teaching at a community college but I can speak for having been a graduate of one. For the record my educational track was SLAC (drop out) --> CC (AA) --> R1 (BA) --> Second String State (MA) --> Ivy (PhD).
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of dead weight at community colleges, a lot of kids marking time. Usually they are white and middle class and wear the dreaded base ball caps.
There are a lot of people who struggled academically in high school and have been pushed into college life by their families and by societal expectation that everyone should go to college. They suck up a lot of instructors time.
There are a lot of young people who were ill served by their high school and need a lot of help catching up. If they know they were ill served they can be gems. If they don't they're the ones Roger describes.
There are a lot of recent immigrants whose english can often be suspect. But I've always seen them as hard workers who are a joy to be in class with and I suspect would be a joy to teach if they have any english comprehension skills at all.
And then there are people like me who are there to recover from a mistake in life. The second chancers. These may be people with criminal records or people who just fucked up in college. I've seen good and bad out of this pile both ways. It really just depends on how far along they are in accepting that the failure was their own fault.
As an educational experiance... I got as much out of my CC classes as I did out of the ones at the public ivy I transfered into later. Yes, the 101 entry level classes can be a little painful but once there is at least one pre-req the classes were essentially the same. I got a lot more attention from the instructors and I can tell you that I learned alot more about writing from those instructors than just about anyone in my educational career. They didn't assume anything and my experiance was that a student who took advantage of what was offered to them could write a lot better than the general population of B papers at the R1 I went to.
And my greatest joy in writing the emails to former professors about my admission to the Ivy PhD program came when I was writing the community college instructors. So yes, i'm sure there is a lot of crap in the way, and i'm sure I was a rare student for them.
But there was a lot of crap at my R1 and there was a lot of crap in my Masters program and i'm not entirely convinced that the reasons for the students being crappy didn't get less reasonable the more advanced I was in the educational track.
I have friends teaching in a local CC and they seem to be reasonably happy. Their load is 4/4 not 5/5. However the admin seems to be quite supportive, and to allow the departments a good deal of autonomy in how they teach and what constitutes a "passing" performance by a student. I think they would be much less happy with unsupportive admin. So I would recommend doing as Junebug says and researching the admin support and attitude in this particular CC. Do you know anyone who teaches there? Getting the perspective of current faculty would be invaluable.
ReplyDeleteBoth of my friends incidentally got the job with an MA and haven't gone farther than that; but they were both hired before 2000, and I don't think the CC is hiring MAs now.
@Leslie K: Do you dream up these names? "Gorilla" seems like a demeaning name. On the other hand, I do like Gorillaz.
ReplyDelete@Gorilla: Is your commute via car or train or something else? If train, then don't leave Urban State. Likewise, if you are walking eight hours each week to and from Urban State, then keep that job because you're getting good exercise. But if you are driving 8 hrs/week, then consider the CC job. Consider it, but don't necessarily take it.
@Everybody else: Is it true that working at a rural CC is generally better than working at an urban CC?
In many cases I provide a pseudonymous moniker for posters who send in material via email (non-correspondents).
ReplyDeleteIn this case, Gorilla was self-identified.
I've got a lengthy commute as well. Teaching at the local CC has crossed my mind.
ReplyDeleteThink about what it is that makes it hard for you. For me it is the drive. It exhausts me physically and emotionally. By Friday I'm so dead that it takes all of Saturday and some of Sunday to recover. If this is what makes your week so difficult, then try staying in a hotel once or twice a week for the next few weeks. If you feel less tired and like you are getting more out of your weekend, then get a place to crash at near Urban State and stay there a few times a week. You may find this helps your situation.
Carpool = lifesaver. I can't read in the car (it makes me queasy) but I can listen to podcasts of stuff I will use in class, I can review lecture notes, I can plan articles. I also appreciate the time to be relatively mentally isolated. But small minds, small pleasures.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience as a community college graduate just finishing a BFA/BS at an R1, it's worth mentioning that a CC's academic environment will differ significantly between departments. The chemistry courses at my CC were reputed to be harder than those at the nearby public ivy, and upon transferring I was surprised to find that they were much harder and required much more actual thought than those at my 4-year. However, the quality of the 100-level composition courses varied a great deal by professor, and I dropped a psych major because the courses were so depressingly easy and therefore useless.
ReplyDeleteI can't say what teaching at a CC is like, but I wouldn't pay too much attention to the overall reputation of the school. Try to visit a class or two if you can; that'll give you a better idea of what your daily and therefore most important environment might be.
The Canadian system is different from the American one so I can't speak to much of this. However, I can say that it is quite nice to have no pressure to do any publishing and there is much more scope (and less pressure) in the types of research you can do. Your job is to teach. Period. Your reading time is your own. You don't have to go to conferences. You don't have to publish and, if you do, you need not publish in academic journals but can, instead, write in any genre that appeals to you.
ReplyDeleteTo me, these are benefits but I never really liked the highly academic environment, the products of which often appeared to be case of the Emporer's New Clothes. If you want to do high level research and go to all the conferences, CC is not the job for you.
And, yes, the students are of a lower level, but there are gems and they love you more at CC.
Gorilla, you asked: Is anyone actually happy at a community college? I am! I highly recommend it if you follow the advice of Junebug and Haphazard Musings.
ReplyDeleteMy background: B.A. from an Ivy League, Ph.D. from a mid-ranked state university campus. Won national and international awards as a grad student, was offered postdocs that already had grant support, "future so bright, I gotta wear shades" kind of prospects. But hubby had secure job with benefits the postdocs didn't offer, and we had family nearby to help with the kids. So I applied ONLY for CC jobs and got two TT ones.
First one was at a dysfunctional CC with lots of backstabbing campus politics. I stayed long enough to get tenure and then resigned the same year, along with two other new hires in my department. We all moved to other, saner CCs with better morale and are still there.
What I love: everything you said you want.
As for status: those who care about it are never satisfied, even at R1 schools. They compete with others in their department and colleagues at other R1s. After they get full professorship, it's about influence with the national research funding agencies or an invitation to join a National Academy. Sure, a CC is lowest on the rungs. So what? I find it very satisfying, except for the snowflakes, who apparently show up at every school anyway.
You also asked for tips on how to determine the quality of life for faculty. There's good advice here already, to which I add my own experience wandering around the department a few days before the interview at CC #2. One faculty member stopped and asked if she could help me, and another one was very helpful when I asked him for directions. Both took the time for a short, friendly conversation when I told them I was applying for the open position. They were not too busy or stuck up to help a stranger, but went out of their way to help. That first impression has borne up over my 10+ years on this faculty.
Now how can you figure out if a school is like my first CC? Try scouring the web for the CC's latest accreditation evaluation -- the dysfunction showed up in an evaluation slamming my first CC. Also on the web, look for the latest collective bargaining process -- any "last, best offers" or accusations of bad faith? And if you can, talk to some faculty off campus. (Maybe your child's friends' families? One of the PTA Board members at your local schools?)
Advice for your interview: prepare to know about the latest buzzwords in pedagogy and accreditation: Student Learning Outcomes, Course Management Systems (e.g., Blackboard), online or distance learning, classroom assessment, ADA. You'll wow your interview committee if you ask, "What's your timeline for compliance with the requirement for all films to be closed-captioned?" or "What's your timeline for courses to have assessed their SLOs?"
Even the committee members who wish these things would go away will be impressed, and your potential in admin will be remembered!
Good luck and report back, please!
Gorilla, here. Sorry, Bubba, about my name. All other possible names were taken when I tried setting up a new gmail account. Chunky Gorilla Monster (inspired by my deliciously chunky toddler) was all that I found available in my 5-minute quest. Maybe 'Chunk from Charleston' would have been better, but whatever.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the feedback-- though some of it frightens me immensely. Through friends at Solid State U, I have heard that the CC is the best around and that the department I'd be joining is quite good (though it currently only contains one tenured or TT prof). That's hopeful. I do hope to sit in on a class and try to get a real feel for the place. I am also very interested in the general attitude toward academic standards and how supportive the admin. is in maintaining and enforcing those standards. Do you think they'll be upfront with this info??
I especially appreciate Natalie's comments (probably because they give me the most hope). My best friend was also a SLAC dropout, took some classes at a CC, and finished her BA at an Ivy. She now has a PhD. Also, I imagine that many smart, conscientious students start at CCs for financial and family reasons, but then have plans to go on to bigger and better things.
Juxtapose this with Urban State-- a glorified 4-year CC. Generally speaking, many students aren't prepared, don't care, etc. I fail about 30% of my intro-level students. I suspect these students may be worse than the CC because they actually plan to stay at Urban State for 4+ years. At least I can hope that the CC students have bigger plans-- career, further ed., etc.
Oh, did I mention that the adjuncts outnumber the full-time faculty 4:1 at Urban State? Those are the stats in my department. I can't imagine what they are in English...
The drive is getting burdensome. 130 miles roundtrip. 1 1/2 hours to get to work, if you include dropping off the kid at the babysitter's. Because of the time commitment, it cuts short time with family, friends, and colleagues. It's just me and NPR for 2+ hours a day. I dream of what can be done with all that time. I did carpool my first year (now in year 3), but it's difficult to find a partner with the scheduling and distance. I certainly don't want to be here 9-5, like most commuters. Also (to Crazy Math Prof), I have a baby, so staying in Urban Center is not an option. I must admit that my dept. has been generous with online and hybrid courses and I only drive down 3 days a week this semester (normal schedule would be 4 days)-- though I still dread it.
I hope (no, pray!) the interview proves telling in what I can expect from life at the CC.
Thank you, Eskarina-- for your experience and advice.
ReplyDeleteAnd I totally agree with the status insights-- at least, intellectually.
I'm thinking I've got all (or most) of the buzz they may be interested in and even mentioned in the ad-- online, hybrid, learning communities, first year experience, etc. etc. I'm down with it. I've won awards for my teaching of first years. And I'm up with the SLOs and assessment speak.
Great advice. Thank you. And I'm so glad to hear that you're happy! Seriously.
And, to issyvoo, removing the pressure of publication does seem tempting. However, I don't want to give it up entirely. I'm hoping they'll at least pay for one conference a year. Do they do that??
I think that it entirely depends on the community college. Entirely. I am a veteran of a community college--I went there for two years before I transferred to Big State University. It was a wonderful place with great teachers. Truly great. Some of the best I've ever had, ever. I still remember them.
ReplyDeleteBut this was thirty years ago, and a long way from where I teach now. I would guess that it entirely depends on the administration and the nature of the students. Even then, if the students are recalcitrant, that's fine so long as you can set college-level standards and force those that won't live up to them to drop, or be allowed to fail them with impunity.
Many students at four-year schools put everything else before their studies. That phenomenon is not unique to CCs. But if you are relegated to babysitting and keeping butts in seats, your life will be hell.
@Gorilla: I know of a CC department where the adjuncts outnumber the f-t faculty 10:1. So 4:1 sounds wonderful to a lot of people. My preference would be 0:1. As far as students go, my discussions with colleagues leads me to believe that there is far greater heterogeneity at CCs. Your students at Urban State might be mediocre, but they're more homogeneous. At the CC, your students will be all over the map. At least Urban State has an admissions committee; the CC does not.
ReplyDeleteIs there any way you and your partner could live in the middle? It seems like an awful lot--you compromise on your career prospects _and_ you have a long commute so that h/she can keep the dream job? A 30 minute commute for each of you sounds more fair.............
ReplyDeleteGorilla, I can't speak for the American system. It's a pretty good gig here in Canada with room for research and conferences and some funding (though not probably as much as you'd like) but also room for more eclectic study and projects. Where research and publishing is concerned, it's low pressure and high flexibility. That said, with a 4/4 course load and no ta's, most of my energy goes to the teaching.
ReplyDeleteWith lower tuition (though all Canadian tuition is much lower than in the States), my students don't usually come from an upper class background and I think that probably cuts down on the snowflakery, though there is still plenty of it. I also have many immigrant students whose intelligence and discipline are top notch but whose English skills land them in my college; this can be both lovely and kind of heart breaking as you watch them failing through no real fault of their own. I know that bright students really like my college, always saying that they can tell teaching is our priority and that they get the kind of individual attention lacking at universities. (Again, the Canadian system is different here so I'm not sure what the parallel to a Canadian university is called down there).
Really, though, from what I read here, it seems to me that I deal with the same bullshit (snowflakes, students seen as customers, low admissions standards, etc.) that everyone else is dealing with. So why not cut out the commute? Same bullshit, less travel time.
"So why not cut out the commute? Same bullshit, less travel time."
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm thinking! I'm definitely open to the CC, since most other things will be equal (unless I discover otherwise next week).
Evelina-- I've always been advised to never live in the middle: both people commuting, never making a home. And then the kids have lives where you don't. Plus, we really like College Town (and nowhere in between). And, we just bought a house here.
Unfortunately, too, there aren't many options. We've moved from the northeast where there are colleges on every corner. The options are much more limited here-- no SLACs to speak of. Yet, the lifestyle (and weather) is better than the northeast locale where our old jobs were converging.
I may be settling for worse options while the spouse has the dream job. But he's the researcher, and I'm the teacher. He finished the PhD 6 years before me and makes $20K more. Luckily, he's good at grocery shopping, cooking, and taking care of the baby. I can't complain.
I've loved teaching at my CC -- sure, a 5/5 kinda sucks, but the lack of a research requirement makes it good. You'll also be much more in control of your work and promotion potential than at a research U, especially if you're already doing a 4/4 -- because you don't have to publish to get tenure -- heck, at my place you don't need a Ph.D.
ReplyDeleteI say cut the commute and take the CC job if they offer it to you.
I am really happy at my CC. I am able to travel to two conferences a year to keep abreast of my discipline and my teaching skills. I love the flexibility that my schedule affords me as well as the independence in the classroom. I love teaching, so you really can’t get me out of the classroom. The students can be a challenge, but I enjoy that challenge. I never get bored with them. Every class has a unique personality that I enjoy discovering. Good luck on your interview!
ReplyDeleteYou can't generalize about CCs any more than you can about any other type of institution. Even within my own city, in which we have multiple CCs plus another dozen within a couple of hours, each one is different. Mine is like a university in many ways, which is one reason I'm generally happy here despite the fact that my department is full of crazies. Other CCs right up the road range in culture from "alternative learning theories" to "we're all about access" and just about everything in between. We do have a research expectation, but it's mostly institutional research designed to improve teaching. Most TT people who come here to work tend to retire rather than leave. I take that as a positive sign.
ReplyDeleteIt pays to research the site, talk to people who work there, and look at whatever statistics they collect.
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ReplyDelete@ Evelina -- you're right about the unfairness of giving up a hot career trajectory and still being the one who commutes. I'm living that. But Gorilla's right about needing one parent to be near the kids' daycare, school, teams, etc., in case of emergencies. Also, already owning a house is a huge consideration these days.
ReplyDeleteAll of this would have worked out fine for me if Hubby hadn't been so enamored of his ivory tower. As it is, I'm one of a group of "single parents with an academic spouse." When my youngest heads to college in 6 years, I'll be moving near my beloved CC and most likely not inviting Hubby.
@ Chunky Gorilla: Sure, we get conference money (at least until that, too, is cut from the budget). We can apply for $200 per year, and if some don't use it, the leftover funds go into a pool and we can apply to use it for a bigger reimbursement.
Also, I had a paid, full-year sabbatical a few years ago. And we can sponsor conferences and invite speakers to our CCs.
I do love it here. My colleagues keep impressing me with how seriously they take teaching and how much they care about our students (in between bashing our heads on the walls about them). Good luck!